CATL Licensing New Sodium EV Battery Technology

This is a fairly significant development in the world of EVs. CATL is the world leader in EV battery sales and licensing. They are selling this latest technology in a license agreement, where they assist in the plant construction. This allows companies like GM, Ford, and other worldwide manufacturers to market the product, and allows customers to take advantage of domestic rebates.

This article talks about the batteries. Some achieve an energy density of 200 WHrs/ KG. This is a little higher than the BYD Lithium/Phosphate Blade Battery at 190 WHrs/KG. More importantly though are five properties:

1. Limiting or eliminating Lithium and other rare-earth minerals.
2. Degrades to only 90% of charge, at -20 degrees C. (Very desirable feature in North America).
3. Safer. Maintains low temperatures. The BYD Blade Battery withstands a nail-penetration test. Sodium is even safer.
4. Charges to 80% in 15 minutes.
5. Cost could be as much as 30% less than current batteries.

https://thedeepdive.ca/catl-explore...makers-as-it-focuses-on-sodium-ion-batteries/

These batteries showcased remarkable charging capabilities, achieving an 80 percent charge in just 15 minutes at room temperature, and maintaining a discharge retention rate of over 90 percent even at temperatures as low as -20°C.
…
The battery maker also recently introduced the “AB battery pack solution,” integrating sodium-ion batteries with lithium-ion counterparts within the same pack. This fusion aims to mitigate the energy density limitations of sodium-ion batteries while harnessing their superior performance under high-power conditions and low temperatures.

 

Here’s the Sam Evans analysis. Sam also points out that the sodium batteries achieve 5000 charging cycles. That’s easily 15-20 years of life. Sam claims, “There’s no way an Internal Combustion Engine can compete.”

 

Heavier EV batteries. Nice.

 

This PR initiative is apparently an attempt to divert attention from a drop in CATL's profitability.
BEIJING, March 15 (Reuters) - Chinese electric vehicle battery maker CATL (300750.SZ) , opens new tab posted its first drop in quarterly net profit since the second quarter of 2022 on Friday as it wrestled with smaller competitors amid slowing demand in the world's largest auto market.Mar 15, 2024

China's CATL posts first quarterly profit fall since 2022, regains ...

 

Show your proof. More power per kilogram suggests less weight for the same mileage capacity. Your hate for EVs noted.

 

Typical rhetoric after quarter after quarter of huge jumps in sales and profits. OMG - they were down 1.2%.

 

The energy density of the batteries you are talking about may have an energy density of 200 Wh/kg. Do you know what energy density is? Apparently not. The theoretical sodium battery is less energy dense than the current lithium batteries. That means heavier batteries if you want the same capacity.

https://m.energytrend.com/news/20230712-32635.html#

I don’t hate EVs. I love them. I’m glad they are improving. I hope someday they may be good enough to do me some good. But I do like facts. It’s a fact your theoretical battery is heavier than current lithium batteries. Because the energy density is lower. Sodium is heavier than lithium. Rainbows and unicorns can’t change that fact.

 

Again, you aren’t following or reading the articles. CATL came up with a sodium battery in 2022 which had an energy density of 165 WHrs/Kg, which was unprecedented at the time. This has been improved with this new generation, to up to 200 WHrs/Kg. And it’s ready for mass manufacture. Great stuff!

 

LOL. But the 200 Wh/kg isn’t in production. And CURRENT lithium batteries in Teslas are already at 244 to 296 Wh/kg.

Lower energy density makes for a heavier battery. This isn’t golf. We are looking for bigger numbers when it comes to energy density. The current Tesla batteries have a higher energy density than your prototype sodium batteries. Thus, the sodium battery will be heavier if it is made to have equivalent capacity to the Tesla lithium battery.

Sodium is heavier than lithium. That’s why the sodium prototype you have mentioned will be heavier and have a lower energy density.

Remember, a low energy density means a heavier battery. A higher energy density allows for a lighter batter with the same capacity. Simple stuff. How can an acclaimed electrical engineer think a 200 Wh/kg battery can be lighter than a 244-296 Wh/kg battery with equivalent capacity? How can an electrical engineer not see heavier batteries that have less energy density as a step backwards for efficiency in EVs?

How on earth is a heavier battery progress?

 

With a 15-minute charge time, one doesn’t need long range. North American auto makers are more concerned about liability than range. A spec of 90% at -20C is huge. It is much better than Lithium batteries and ICEs, both of which suffer efficiency at those temps.Also, although most EVs are very safe, some of the batteries can catch fire in accidents, as can ICEs. If I managed an automobile manufacturing company, I’d want to protect my company against lawsuits and recalls first and foremost.
I’d buy an EV with this battery in a heartbeat. Give me 150-mile range, and I’m good for 99.9% of my trips!

 

If you want a heavier battery it’s your right. More tire wear and more damage to highways makes it seem like an illogical choice. A Tesla can add 200 miles of range to a lithium battery in 15 minutes now. A lighter battery with more potential capacity.

The safety issue is a definite positive for the sodium technology. But I don’t think folks are going to go for less range and more weight to get a safer battery. Especially after they have been told over and over and over that lithium batteries in EVs are not a safety concern.

 

It's pretty clear that if you managed an automobile manufacturing company it would be dead in a week.

 

I’m not knocking Lithium. I have them in my PHEV. The cold weather issue is a big deal for North American manufacturers. Liability! As for the safety concern- similar to ICEs, if in an accident, move away from the vehicle. The Blade Battery has passed the nail puncture test, and it’s energy density is lower - 190…

it’s only more weight, if one wants that extra range. I’m hoping that these dealerships stop pushing the higher range EVs. I visited a Tesla dealership last week, and they didn’t even have the lower range vehicles in stock.

Keep in mind, with EVs most charging is done conveniently at home.

 

Agree on the cold issue. In extreme cold the energy density issue would be compensated for by more efficiency at low temps.

There are people who don’t care about range. But most people do care. I’m one who has no use for a short range vehicle that doesn’t have the option of longer range.

Manufactures are likely listening to consumers when they work towards longer range.

Sodium ion batteries have a lot of potential. Especially for non transportation use like home battery banks, grid storage, etc. Just not in transportation at large scale.

 

I
‘M fairly certain that this pursuit of CATL was at the behest of their customers. So evidently the big players think they can sell them.

 

Oh! They will sell. It is only the “not muh lightbulbs!!” Crowd that are making up excuses

 

Most people live in cities and that is where scooters/ electric bikes are becoming a real hazard because if you combine them with public transport suddenly you have a great way to get around with no parking issues

 

Hazard? What hazard? To pedestrians?

Are scooters and electric bikes transitioning to lower energy density batteries?

 

Yes scooters capable of 50k/hr are becoming a Major hazard to pedestrians. It is revolutionising travel in the bigger cities

 

Which customers? These sodium ion batteries are in the research and development stage. They are working on a second generation sodium ion battery that may achieve 200 Wh/kg. Apparently consumers weren’t asking for 160 Wh/kg.

To achieve better energy density they are also experimenting with sodium ion and lithium ion technology combined in one battery pack. They wouldn’t be doing that if consumers wanted heavier batteries with less range.

Per your link, CATL is aggressively pushing this product by initiating contact with potential customers. I didn’t see anything in your link about consumers petitioning CATL to build a heavier battery.

When CATL started talking about this technology lithium prices had increased 14 fold. I’m sure consumers were asking for cheaper tech when that was going on. Now that lithium prices are back down, it’s less likely consumers are going to settle for inferior energy density. I’ve seen no evidence less energy density is being asked for by consumers. I see evidence the consumer wants higher energy density though.

 

Soooo - should I sell lithium stocks?

 

Well, we better not adopt sodium ion technology for them. Getting run over by a heavier vehicle isn’t better for pedestrians for sure.

I’m all for city folk whizzing around on/in EVs. Of course assuming they aren’t burning more coal to power them. I’m looking forward to a time when EVs make sense for doing work outside cities as well.

But right now I’m a bit concerned the folks all twitterpated about EVs and battery technology are infatuated with things that aren’t reality. It’s taken several posts to explain a lower energy density in a battery means a heavier battery not a lighter battery. I think what folks believe about EVs and battery technology should be based on facts and evidence. Sounds crazy, I know. Rainbows and unicorns sound like so much more fun than boring physics.

 

However - you KNOWhow much I love citations so if you have anything I would be grateful. Meantime it suggests we may have a dual technology with sodium batteries for heavier vehicles I.e. disability scooters and lithium for ultra light vehicles. EVs are having a BIG impact in Asia where population density has caused major issues with air pollution and other factors. I know Indonesia is looking to revolutionise transport with heavy investment in EVs but then the pollution level in cities like Jakarta has reached “ breathe only every second hour”

 

Conventional “wisdom” is that lithium prices will creep back up as oversupply is used up. Hopefully the global economy holds together so that can happen. Sodium ion tech will certainly decrease demand for lithium long term. Which is good as sodium has much less negative impacts on the environment than lithium extraction and processing. Sodium for these batteries can even be “created” synthetically so it’s not a finite resource like lithium. As prices for sodium ion batteries come down they will certainly displace lithium ion tech in non transportation applications. Who knows if transportation applications for lithium tech will be sustainable. Depends on whether or not we can supply enough electricity to power a bunch more EVs.

It’s a bit concerning that there is massive conflict in the Middle East and oil is only $80/barrel. That tells me the global economy isn’t particularly bullish. Cheap energy amidst geopolitical strife and uncertainty typically denotes a weak global economy.

 

Citations for what specifically? Much of what I’ve posted can be found in the OP link. Up thread I’ve already documented the energy density disparity between sodium ion and lithium ion batteries.

CATL is working on a hybrid lithium sodium cell that combines the advantages of both technologies in one pack. That’s in the OP link as well.

I’m just pointing out the fact that sodium ion batteries weigh more per unit of capacity than lithium ion batteries and that it’s a problem for adoption in the EV marketplace. Sodium is just heavier and “larger” than lithium. Not my opinion, just a well known fact of chemistry/physics.



I could be wrong. Consumers could be clamoring for heavier battery technology. I’ve just not ever seen it. From phones to EVs to power tools, lighter , longer lasting batteries (higher energy density) are what consumers want.

Sure, sodium ion would be fine for mobility scooters as long as the human using the scooter doesn’t value range over other aspects of sodium ion technology.

And I have no problem getting pollution out of cities. As long as it’s not creating more pollution elsewhere.