Europe vs US wars. Who would win - Part 2.

Well the fact of the matter is that we'll never know. However, the F-22 has performed tremendously well in wargames and has become sort of the accepted standard. I've yet to hear a single allied nation that's war gamed it disparage its capabilties. Considering the immense amounts of money, previous stealth technology, and track record of the companies and country that built it, combined with war gaming, I think we can surmise its the best in the world. Of course, its impossible to REALLY know until it goes to war.

Most of the problems associated with the aircraft are relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. In a wartime situation when you can cut corners the aircraft would still function normally. Your 30 hour statement is also very out of date. As of 2009 it was averaging 10.5 hours of maintenance for each flight hour...below the original design requirements.

 

Of course they haven't! Allies would never disparage another allies "best" aircraft.

Like the immense amount of money, previous stealth technology and track record of the companies and country that built the Sentinel?

Relatively minor problems that do not exist with the Eurofighter, which is similar in temrs of ability, bar stealth?

10hrs in a hanger is a pretty large window!

 

Like the country that built the F-117, F-16, F-15, B-1, and B-2 Bombers....all combat tested aircraft.

Who says the Eurofighter is similar in ability to the F-22 minus stealth? My understanding is that the Raptors Avionics and Supercruise really set it apart.

 

The Eurofighter supercruise's.... at mach 1.5. The F-22 (apparently) supercruises at mach 1.75. its a negligible difference. Avionics are similar as well. The only thing the F-22 has over the Eurofight at the moment is thrust vectoring, but this will be added to the Eurofighter in the future.

 

It may sound negligable, until you realize that is 190 mph (306 kph).

That is a huge difference.

 

Oh, really? As I am not an American, I was unable to realise that.

So, why do you think 190mph difference in supercruise makes such a massive diffference?

 

My understanding is that the avionics are far superior. The F-22 can act as a mini-AWACs and direct other aircraft onto targets. I'm obviously not enough of a technical expert to break down the exact improvements, but from what I've read its the whole package that makes the F-22 so superior. Supercruise, stealth, and the best avionics for fighters. What leaves you to believe that the Eurofighter has equivalent avionics?

 

Oh no...we seem to be back onto the F22 vs Eurofighter debate again.

Would i be right in saying that these 2 aircraft were designed with a different set of specs, so therefore not that comparable?

 

Well in 5 years time Europe will be getting oil out of the Falklands.

Have look at the Europe overseas territories.

 

Eurofighter wins hand's down.

 

It isnt really a debate. The F-22 is obviously superior in pretty much every way. The only real question is HOW superior.

 

eh.............but doesnt it depend on the pilot?

 

How is it so superior?

 

Technology > Pilot.

In general, thats how it works nowadays. This isnt the movies. There are some technological advantages that pilot skill simply cannot compensate for.

 

Stealth is the most obvious one.

In what area is the F-22 NOT superior to the Eurofighter?

 

I already covered that. I Alos made a comment about "stealth".

You stated that the avionics of the F-22 are better than that of the Eurofighter. I am confused as to why you think this?

 

Why do you think the Eurofighter's avionics are comparable to the F-22?

And how can you be sure stealth is negated?

 

No one.

That was easy.

 

From what I have read, I am convinced the EF's avionics are the best. People are screaming about PIRATE, for instance. The AESA is apparently better than the f-22's as well... and we will know this for sure when the F-35 is done, as it will use the same as the f-22. To get any more specif than that would be pointless on here.

I dont think stealth should be negated. i just think it is not as important as it used to be and I think IR should be considered more. Did you watch the youtube video I posted?

I also think people take the f-22's stats out of hand and think its some kind of invisible, untouchable god-plane. Its stated for instance, as having an RCS of only about 1cm, compared to >1m for the Eurofighter. Thats sounds great and I can see why people may get excited....However, this is at specific angles. When it moves, i.e. when it is flying and stuff, this RCS increase's.... significantly. How significantly, I dont know. i dont think anyone does.

I remember reading somewhere (don't ask where, i cant remember) a Eurofighter GmBH rep who stated, if flying in a standard formation, the Eurofighter could see a "generic 5th Gen fighter" as it would expose its less stealthy angles to at least 1 of the planes.


Oh... this is worth a read too. The forums a bit over the top Pro-Eu, but I remeber seeing this and thinking "WTF!". Lockheed Martin obviously dont like people comparing their baby with any competitor.

http://eucitizens.eu/Forum/index.php?topic=166.0

(Read from page 1 to page 5)



So there you go...




When are you going to substantiate any of your claims, rather than just jumping on the F-22 bandwagon?

 

A very enlightening and interesting read............and it proves that though obviously the F-22 is an excellent plane, it is however, in the real world no better than either the Typhoon or probably the Rafale, and its so called stealth abilities at long range have been penetrated by Eurofighters..........and it costs a shed load of money more!!

As i said earlier, the pilots do still count, as was shown when 2 F15 pilots decided to take on a Eurofighter by locking on to it..............but were both out manoueved by the Typhoon pilot who eventually got the lock on both the F15's.

 

An online forum quoting outside news sources "proves" nothing. Especially on an online forum of clear Euro fanboys.

It's like those military exercises where U.S./NATO aircraft "lose" to Indian/Russian etc. aircraft and the media jumps all over it....only to find out through better sources it was 3:1 or was a specific test of a given capability. War games are just that....and "chance encounters" during peacetime are hardly comparable to actual combat capability. This goes both ways though.

 

I was only quoting some info that the previous poster had highlighted.

I suppose we could say that at the end of the day, each fighter has its speciality, whether stealth or dogfighting, but in fairness all have their stengths and weaknesses, and it would largely depend on the scenario in which a conflict took place, and how the training and skill of individual pilots in using their aircrafts strong points, which would sway any airfight between rival fighters in a battle.

 

Fine. To be fair, that forum is a bit odd...

Anyway, so, why would Lockheed Martin try to be so covert in their defence of their baby on a "fanboy" forum?

Oh, and when are you going to state why you feel the the F-22 is so superior? You clearly stated the avionics are better... why are they?

 

If you're not aware, many countries try and steal military technology from the U.S. China and Israel are perfect examples. The U.S. seems to think that it has a decided technology advantage in the F-22 and has actually passed a law in Congress making it illegal to export the aircraft. A similar level of secrecy has been associated with past projects....like the B-2 and F-117. The U.S. has even refused to release some of the source code for the F-35 to partner nations, notably Turkey.

As I said earlier, I don't have the technical know how or access to the F-22 to make a full determination. Frankly, I don't think anyone on this board has, and those that might know wouldn't be able to speak on it. I'm just saying that based on Lockheed and the U.S. Air Force's history of producing top quality aircraft, the incredible amount of money that's gone into the project, the F-117/B-2, and the general positive consensus in war games (again, not the end all), its quite likely the F-22 is the best fighter on earth.

 

Wow. So, yeah, you jumped on the bandwagon.

They decided they had a decided technology advantage in the F-22.... so much so that "they", the only people aware of its "capabilties" cancelled it.

But you said the F-22 was so much better. You were adamant the avionics were "superior"... now you say you have no idea.

Like the Sentinel.... <s(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)s>

Like the Eurofighter

For which you have provided no evidence.

based on your imagination! On that basis, its also quite likely not the best fighter in the world.