2nd child of Pa. couple, who seek prayer not doctors, dies; violates probation, no ch

Sec, this topic and abortion are 2 entirely different issues.

As much as I hate abortion, it can never be a black and white issue b/c there's to many victims involved - incest victims and the majority of them are just KIDS - should a 12-14 yr old kid be told she's going to have her daddy's baby whether she likes it or not? There's rape victims, which also includes mentally challenged teen girls and women who had been taken advantage of ......

Anyway ..... and here in this thread there are small victims who are seriously sick and not receiving medical help b/c the parents think they can pray them well......

The Christian Scientists have made a few changes about refusing medical care for their seriously ill children where some died - after a few were convicted and went to prison. I remember watching that on the news quite a few yrs ago....

 

Bingo! On all points......

 

It's not murder, dude. Negligence, perhaps.

 

Negligence - DEFINITELY. When an .... how old was the child? 8 months old? ... has severe diarrhea and breathing problems and the diarrhea alone can quickly kill a child.... you don't stand over him w/your hands folded in prayer, you get your kid to the ER fast.

To not take your child to the ER for help is sheer negligence ... I don't give a dam what their (*)(*)(*)(*)-eyed religion is.

 

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities,(*)for there is no authority except that which God has established.(*)The authorities that exist have been established by God.(*)
Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted,(*)and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

Them folks an Christian .....obviously

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

I do not include chapter and verse ....folks ought to know em after this many years.....if u doubt than seek.

These monsters aren't Christian ....period.

 

Interesting. I hope "X" whom the judge said is "a mature child of high intelligence" will re-think the JW's refusal for blood transfusions s he grows into adulthood w/good health and get away from that cult...... altho he'll be shunned if he does. That's another thing I dislike about that religion......

 

lol stop yelling at me Humm!

 

The murder law needs intent, so their thoughts are necessary. But it would mean the judge and jury has to accept their thoughts are that ignorant.

A liberal jury and judge would say they were smarter than that, and intentionally allowed the homicide to occur.

 

Gross negligence.

 

the topic may well be 2 different issues but the intervention must be treated the same.

If we are to propose that we as a society treat as criminals any parent who refuses to provide medical treatment then where do we stop the government intrusion? If a child gets a boo boo and mom cleans it and puts on a band aid, but the would gets infected causing shock while the child is asleep, is that negligent manslaughter?

Do we create a new govt agency to monitor how parents are maintaining their children? Who decides what is acceptable and unacceptable?

Medical science has determined that being overweight is bad for you. Do we punish parents of overweight children?

Where does it end? And naturally, since this is all in the good name of protecting the children, then why are we not going to include those within the womb?

so, remove the knee-jerk reaction toward the 2 pathetic people in the article, cry for the child; I'm with you on both. But, how far do we want govt in our lives? And, if you are going to be an advocate for children then make it for ALL CHILDREN and that means no more murdering of the unborn. I don't care if the child is in the womb of a 12 year old, they are still a life.

hmmmmmmm, makes you have to think, doesn't it?

 

In the US Supreme Court decision in Reynolds v United States in 1878 the Court, in it's decision, cited a statement from Thomas Jefferson related to religious beliefs.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/reynoldsvus.html

While the parents can hold any religious beliefs they choose their actions directly lead to the death of two children. As far as I'm concerned the parents should be prosecuted for premeditated murder and hopefully would be convicted and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

 

Right. Maybe they will be able to pray their way out? People who think like this are a danger to society and should be locked away for the rest of their lives.

 

I'd enjoy that too, but, PA law would only allow them to be charged with involuntary manslaughter...

But, they need to go away permanently...

 

Meh, it's started a discussion that's been largely civil, so, my intent was successful...

At any rate, sure, there are side effects to many medical treatments...

However, I don't think that anything a doctor would've done for what was wrong with this baby would've been harmful...

They probably would've just kept him hydrated, and, given him some common meds to alleviate his symptoms...

Instead, the parents let him die...

I'm real uptight when it comes to children, and these "people" have let two of them die already...

They need to go to prison...

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If it intensifies due to the parents not seeking proper medical care, then, yeah, I could justify saying that they inflicted it, to a degree...

 

They're both terrible...

But, I fail to see why you brought this up...

 

I am confused as to why God did not answer their prayers and heal the child? Twice now God has failed them, maybe they are praying to the wrong God or to one who does not exist.

 

The withholding of medical services was not an "involuntary" act by the parents but instead it was a premeditated (voluntary) act by the parents that directly lead to the death of two children.

In one sense I hate to use one case to set an example but this practice of denial of medical assistance to vulnerable children based upon religious beleifs is far more extensive than many of us would like to accept. The parents have a Right to their religious beliefs but they don't have a Right to force their religious beliefs on their children. We, as a society, need to draw the line where everyone in America knows that the parents cannot violate the Rights of the Child based upon religious beliefs. There can be no "if's, and's, or but's" related to this as these religious beliefs are harming vulnerable children and, in this case, has lead to the inexcusable deaths of the child.

We need to draw the line on religion where the actions of the person based upon their religious beliefs violate the Rights of other Persons including their own children.

 

Even thought this was an incident involving a weird militant faction of christianity, shouldn't all of christianity, including catholics, protestants and evangelicals, all be condemned?

 

your big govt leftist ideology is showing.

let's take your statements above and explore them shall we?

How about the parents who are told that their car needs brakes but don't get them replaced? When they crash, and their child is injured or killed, do we prosecute the parents?

The term pre-meditated implies that the outcome is known and understood, and in this case, it would be death. So, you are stating that you know what is in the heart and mind of the parents? Now, abortion is absolutely pre-meditated murder by all involved, there is no doubt the unborn child will be killed. Are you willing to let your big daddy govt step in and prosecute those who receive and perform abortions?

What about parents with overweight children? Is that not abuse because we know that being overweight is unhealthy. Do we arrest those parents?

Where do you want your leftist govt to stop the intrusion? Will the definition be only for those things that you, Shiva the leftist don't like? Targeting Christians is OK but don't target abortions. Where do you land with respect to the gay parents who are giving hormones to convert the gender of their child? Would you arrest them?

Let's see just how far you want intrusion or if it is to be selective based entirely on your agenda. In other words, your child advocacy stops when it infringes with leftist ideology?

 

I know the withholding was not voluntary, but, for any prosecution to show premeditation, they would have to prove that the parents intent was to kill the child...

Emotional judgment aside, that would be neext to impossible...

The wording of PA law seems to only allow for involuntary manslaughter...

Though I'd hope that there'd be some sort of circumstances that they could be prosecuted under...

 

Since I have 2 daughters, of course I have tho't about it and the truth is, if one of my 12 yr old girls had ended up pregnant thru incest or rape, I would have moved as fast as I could to end the nightmare for her and she still would have had to live w/the residue of that nightmare for the rest of her life........

To force a 12 yr old (or any teen age & sometimes younger) girl to have her father's baby (or a rapist's baby) would be victimizing her all over again. Would you really force your 12 yr old daughter to have her brother's or uncle's or some male relative's or rapist's baby? Just the pregnancy alone would destroy her, not to mention the rest of her life. The babies who are born deserves better than this....

Sometimes people have to make a very difficult and painful decision and that decision should be in favor of the child that has already been brought into this world..... also babies born out of incest are not adoptable - particularly those of father/daughter - b/c of the bloodline, they re born w/physical & mental defects...

Then there's the 12 yr old girl laying in bed, deathly sick. She doesn't know what's wrong w/her. Mom & Dad don't know what's wrong w/her either, but they're going to cure her by saying a bunch of prayers... and the girl dies.

The autopsy shows that she had a disease that would have been curable if she had been taken to a doctor, who would have treated the disease w/modern medicine that the good Lord had given mankind the brains to come up with.... that's death by negligence - no other word for it.

So here we have 2 12 yr old girls in entirely different situations. One is dying and the others future will be dead if she doesn't get the help she needs and the only people who can help these girls is a loving parent by taking them to a doctor and an abortionist......

Life can be a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*), but it should go on for these kids, but often it doesn't b/c they're born to religious zealots or parents who believe that their young daughter having an incest/rapist's baby is more important than their own daughter's mental well-being and her future.......

Alrightie - so you & I are on opposite sides of this issue...... so be it b/c no way in hell would I ever change my mind......

 

Sorry .... I'll try and tone it down next time....

 

It might be a hard case to prove but as far as I'm concerned it was premeditated murder. The parents knew or should have known that denying medical assistance to the child that the child would die. There has never been a single established case of "god" intervening in the affairs of mankind regardless religious claims to the contrary. Such claims are made based upon beliefs and not evidence.

Although I did recently see a humorous picture of the signboard outside of a church deeply buried in snow that read, "Whoever is praying for snow, please stop."

 

If they're really that stupid then charge them with negligent homicide. LOL

 

I'm forcing people to think about their knee-jerk reactions. I also have 2 daughters (and the gray hair to prove it) and God help anyone who hurt them.

What is being bantered around here is the govt stepping in as "advocates" for the children. I am taking that and illustrating scenarios that force people to think about how supportive they really are with the concept of the govt looking over our shoulders

Detroit, Chicago and other leftist big cities are incubators of fatherless children of welfare queens who they themselves become less than model citizens.

Do we then send big daddy govt into those liberal cities and arrest the moms and dads?

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perhaps God did answer their prayers by making humans capable of learning and creating medicine and becoming Drs.