Lou Dobbs, a voice against outsourcing jobs

I do not believe it is, at least not for a large country. I believe the gains from international trade are very minimal, and actually even negetive in several ways.
Like I previously mentioned, trying to argue for the comparative advantage of outsourcing to a low wage country is completely ridiculous when wages (relative to the cost of living) are already low in ones own country, and unemployment is high. If there were plenty of good paying jobs available for all our citizens that would be one thing, but there is not.

In any case, much of the claimed economic "gains" are not really gains at all, just higher costs of housing, which does not really help people on the whole (but rather is harmful). So if you have an economic study that indicates gains, please exclude the increased cost of housing and see whether it still suggests gains after that.

 

Can you refer to one empirical paper that finds that trade gains are insignificant or negative? I look forward to your 'choice'!

 

Look at what happened to the quality of US cars when Japan started importing. Despite the size of the US, the US car manufacturers were a defacto monopoly, with no incentive to build a car that would last for more than 50,000 miles without significant maintenance. How often do you see a car broken down on the road side today?

Minimal gains?

The US is the second largest manufacturer in the world, but most of that labor went to automation. It is cheaper, safer, and much higher quality than manual labor. If we closed our borders, almost ever job being outsourced would be automated. There would be little change in the rate employment in those that are unskilled.

Skill isn't that hard to acquire. Finish high school, 50% more likely to be employed, finish college, 300% more likely - with Junior Colleges and student loans, getting educated isn't that hard.

Unemployment based on education Level Achieved

Less than High School 12.6%
High School Grad 8.4%
Some College or Associate Degree 7.5%
Bachelor's Degree or Higher 4.1%

But, if you still want to eliminate trade, become an economic zone of one household. Being self sufficient, you will always be employed, and you will be incredibly poor.

"Burkhauser on the Middle Class"

http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2012/04/burkhauser_on_t.html

You can read the inverview or listen to the podcast. The economic gains are better than the media would let you believe (for some odd reason, good news isn't "news").

 

That certainly is a good point. But why exactly was it that the USA could not make its own cars of good value and quality? "Specialisation" is not really a convincing argument because the USA was much bigger and had a population three times that of Japan.

Perhaps an argument for racial or cultural comparative advantage between different nations can be made. Some cultures might be better at doing certain things than other cultures. Hitler referred to the Japanese as the "Aryans of Asia". It would be interesting if you could point out any similar examples of such specialisation outside of the northeastern asian countries (Japan,Korea,China) and northern europe.

 

Don't be shy now: Can you refer to one empirical paper that finds that trade gains are insignificant or negative?

 

Does anyone find it strange how alleged proponents of free markets often support actions to inhibit outsourcing?

 

The Japanese learned quality control from Demming, from the US - after the US companies ignored him.

German engineering did a lot to advance auto safety.

As big as the US is, it doesn't encompass all the diversity the globe has to offer.

 

Typically it reflects an innate xenophobia. The market works, except with 'sneaky' johnny foreigner

 

I refuse to divide imports by exports. You get the math right first, or show me where the World Bank uses such math of dividing imports/exports, with an explanation of why. Otherwise in my opinion the question is meaningless and cannot be answered.

 

Minimum wage is not free market. Feel free to show me anyone who supports actions to inhibit outsourcing and supports free markets.

Free markets, existed here, when we got almost all our Federal revenue from Impost taxes before the Civil War, before Lincoln's income taxes, and before minimum wages existed. A free market does not necessarily require treason.

Feel free to answer Reiver's question, even ignoring his upside down math, and ignore minimum wages and anything which might not be considered FREE market:

"Why do you think virtually every country with greater trade importance (i.e. imports/exports as % of GDP) has lower working poverty than the US?"

 

I haven't divided imports by exports. I've merely referred to how the importance of trade can be shown by referring to either imports or exports as % of GDP. All a little obvious really

 

"Since you said, 'I would if I could be bothered,' therefore, now we have established you are not using '/' as a logical operator, but as a mathematical operation." http://www.politicalforum.com/econo...gainst-outsourcing-jobs-3.html#post1061429816

The time to challenge has passed with the response to post #22.

The logical operator of using imports or exports, and not both, does not take into account the decline that may exist for a side using only one indicator.

 

You continue to say naff all

 

What a naif remark.

The importance of trade can NOT be shown by using one indicator such as imports or exports. {period}

 

Of course it can. Comparing an indicator to GDP is terribly common. Your refusal to acknowledge the obvious, using lots of words instead to say nothing, isn't going to impress me

 

The World Bank would not include both if it was not more common to look at both. And then to do like I did in post #22 using both: "Imports of goods and services (% of GDP)" / "Exports of goods and services (% of GDP)" and "Exports of goods and services (% of GDP)" / "Imports of goods and services (% of GDP)", to show the difference.

The decline can exist even with exports as % of GDP, because the GDP data could be skewed by military weapons, large ones costing millions, going to countries in greater decline in a broad range of areas such as debt...

Or like an old joke of mine where I said in response to someone noticing all the stamps on the parts as if they were recycled; I said, "we build the plane and then take it to a plant and take it apart and send the parts back through, as this is really hell."

Like the South could have a great GDP and yet it be based on slavery and agriculture. Or like, there could be a massive heat wave breaking all records and the bread basket dries up; if the exports are based upon one set or type of commodities the great GDP could be based upon something not dependable and could blow away in the Global Warming.

Which equation is used for GDP? Show me the math for a change, if you are capable of anything other than cute and cheeky. CETA could rake leaves in the forest like Neal Boortz said during Cotter Pin; would that be included?

"Austrian School economist Frank Shostak has argued that GDP is an empty abstraction devoid of any link to the real world, and, therefore, has little or no value in economic analysis. In his own words:

...For instance, if a government embarks on the building of a pyramid, which adds absolutely nothing to the well-being of individuals, the GDP framework will regard this as economic growth. In reality, however, the building of the pyramid will divert real funding from wealth-generating activities, thereby stifling the production of wealth." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product#Criticisms

 

The world bank provides numerous stats. To show the importance of trade one can refer to either measure. To show a trade imbalance one would compare the two over time. Your attempt at attacking GDP is mere fluff (the only issue there is whether we can use GDP as a 'good' measure of standards of living; irrelevant to the point made).

 

Here is my Lou Dobbs thesis:


Illegal immigration fiscal highlights
Pros
1. Small businesses and farmers can operate with a lower labor rate by paying wages that don’t have to adhere to a “minimum wage”.
2. In theory, a business can pass this savings on to the end consumer to keep prices lower on a relative basis (particularly agriculture).

Cons
1. Illegal workers make no contributions to Social Security and Medicare (i.e. payroll “taxes”, actually your retirement contributions in the commy USA).
2. Illegal workers significantly increase healthcare costs via Medicaid.
3. Illegal workers make no contributions to property taxes (i.e. 80+ % of which are educational costs in most jurisdictions). A fair retaliatory argument can be made that rent costs also contribute to property taxes when there is a demand for housing, however, it is unlikely that this payment compensates for the illegal worker with a kid in the school district.
4. Illegals make no contributions to state taxes.
5. Illegals make no contributions to federal taxes.
6. There are entire Federal agencies (i.e. Border Patrol) that have to be paid and are dedicated towards preventing illegal border crossings.

These are clearly indisputable facts and only a madman would argue against these statements. An illegal CAN’T pay taxes beyond sales taxes and indirect property taxes (i.e. rent) because the very process of payment might result in an audit and an eventual deportation. I’ve actually seen strippers grow a conscience and report their taxes. To their dismay, they were then required to pay a boatload of money and the IRS is not very forgiving unless you lawyer up. Overall, the negative aspects of illegal immigration far outweigh the positive aspects on a macroeconomic basis. There are some positive aspects from a microeconomics perspective (i.e. the small business owners and farmers). The social highlights are a lot more complex.

Outsourcing fiscal highlights
Short-term, good for the USA, good for the world (particularly “emerging” countries).
Long-term, bad for the USA, good for the world.

Eventually, the import/export ratio of the USA will be noticed by the world and the standard of living will change accordingly. Having a military that can’t be challenged currently allows an extension of “the good old days” for the USA. As stated earlier, I like Lou Dobbs and he is correct on most accounts.

 

Based on what? The economic analysis into negative effects of outsourcing tends to focus on very specific aspects: such as how a firm may lose some core capability. Then we have to factor in numerous aspects. For example, outsourcing is can produce two linked effects: comparative advantage effect and a division of labor effect. The former reflects the ability to further take advantage in differences in factor endowments across countries. The latter refers to the limits of division of labour in the firm (because of, for example, transportation issues) and how outsourcing allows for greater gains. All aspects ignored in this non-economic 'outsourcing is evil' bobbins!

 

Using one measure such as "Imports of goods and services (% of GDP)" cannot tell us the importance of trade.

"GDP as a 'good' measure of standards of living" could be because of stimulus checks or government spending that is increasing short term standards of living but not long term.

A trade imbalance may or may not be a good thing depending upon what you are importing and exporting, and whether your people have the right jobs for survival should the outsources be potential allies or enemies, and whether there is a trade imbalance goes more to importance of trade than a one sided measure.

Once again you provided no math. So I repeat:

"Which equation is used for GDP? Show me the math for a change, if you are capable of anything other than cute and cheeky. CETA could rake leaves in the forest like Neal Boortz said during Cotter Pin; would that be included?"

If we are building churches and palaces for a great GDP with imported amber and those exporting the amber are building forges for swords, we know the outcome of that one.

When the stimulus checks were sent out I complained that we were not spending it on the Manhattan Project for energy that Obama talked about back before the election when his kind said he had balls, instead they handed people some money to buy a foreign made "G.I. Joe with the kung-fu grip!"

Or, they handed people money to buy flipped burgers. Which is a better use of Government spending, buying burger flippers or a Manhattan Project for energy?

The Bush tax cuts were in response to the Dot Com bubble and irrational exuberance, they were not made permanent. If the jobs or standard of living are based upon irrational exuberance of either a Dot Com bubble or a Housing Bubble, "an economy that’s just built on maxing out on credit cards and home equity loans..." what variables in the GDP can tell what the stardard of living is based upon?

If debt of citizens or government is not in the GDP thing then we have to look elsewhere:

"Central government debt, total (% of GDP)" 2009:
China "0" France "83.5" Germany "47.6" USA "67.0"
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/GC.DOD.TOTL.GD.ZS

If we compare that to the previous numbers in post #22:

"Percentages, as in like terms of trade, 'Exports of goods and services (% of GDP)' / 'Imports of goods and services (% of GDP)':

122 92 113 78

Makes us look bad."

France's "92" looks better because of the "83.5" "Central government debt, total (% of GDP)," in 2009 figures, as compared to our "67.0," so just looking at one measure does not look to be working to determine importance of trade.

It seems logical that there should be more variables, a larger more complex equation, and another measure than one thing compared to GDP (and even that equation seems not to be adequate, but you have not provided the equation).

Like say for instance is this correct, and where do the variables come from:

"GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports)?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product#Production_approach

So give us some more fluff, or some actual math.

 

There are serious problems when these foreigners play by different rules, or have a completely different culture with much lower ethical standards.

I remember one story from the 1970's of a Japanese company that made an offer to an American company. The Japanese company told the American company, which made rubber sealers, that it could manufacture the components for the company at a fraction of the cost, and then the American company could sell to its normal customers at a high profit. So the American company outsourced its production to Japan. At first everything was going good, but then the Japanese company purposefully begin to produce defective sealers, and all the customers became dissatisfied with the American company. Then the same Japanese company turned around and began selling the sealers (not defective) to the former customers of the American company. Unethical business tactics were used to steal away the customers, by sabotaging the reputation of the American company.

 

You give the game away with your vague reference to culture. Nationalism always lets the cat out of the bag eventually!

Trade improves quality by enabling greater choice. The usual tales like "we've got a minimum wage and can't compete with poor countries who more aggressively exploit their people" have shown to be drivel, describing an ignorance of comparative advantage and also the wage gains secured in developing countries

 

The US was only recently passed by the Chinese as the largest manufacturers in the world (during the Obama administration I might add). The US manufacturers a lot of high end goods and uses a lot of technology, i.e. robots to do the work. China, on the other hand, uses near slave labor and produces a high number of lower end goods. And yes, this includes things like Ipads. So the next time you want to complain about the US not making anything, first, look yourself in your Ipad mirror right before you make your next facebook update and think, man, if this thing was made in the US it would have cost me upwards of $2000.

 

Try it in per capita terms, a much more useful comparison

 

Tech giant paves way for "immigration reform" (more cheap foreign workers)

[video=youtube;pRjpymjbytE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pRjpymjbytE#at=51[/video]