Is Chrfistianity against moral relavitism?

Does Christianity provide any moral absolutes?

Does anyone actually live by moral absolutes?

 

Why, are you considering converting?

 

Before I respond to this, please give me the reason that you are asking this question.

And before you do, please, I dont really want to play gotcha, snark-wars, etc with you.

 

More like absolute duties and prohibitions imposed by an authority (like 'love your neighbor as yourself' or 'thou shall not covet'). I don't know that I would classify such hard and fast rules as moral values at all because I don't classify morality as a set of arbitrary rules to be obeyed to please an authority or avoid punishment. Morality serves as a guide to proper action but a determination of what is moral or not is something discovered by your mind. The first question you should really be asking is not "what is moral?" but rather "what is morality and why do I and others need morality?"

 

Ok thanks for those thoughts, that makes sense. Some people do speak of moral absolutes of course.
Did you have an observation on what is morality / why need it?

 

You know why I'm asking, but I'll be more candid than you. You're not exploring and trying to learn. You're baiting. You are playing gotcha. Otherwise, I'm supposed to rationalize like this. Someone who constantly mocks Christianity suddenly has sincere questions about it? Why would you, of all people, care one iota how a Christian believes about moral relativism, if not in an effort to dispute it or try to demonstrate Christian hypocrisy?

 

Well let's start with what morality is - a guide to what specific course of action is the right one to take. That's simple enough.
Why does mankind need morality? What purpose does morality serve?
Can you answer this one yourself? I think it would be more fun to see how you and others will answer these questions.

 

There was nothing "candid" in your question, it looked overcharged with double cracks, as I see you confirm here.
Never mind, maybe ask when you are not in such a mood to make things up about me, if ever.

 

Equating that to the law (10C's etc.) it's germane that according to Paul, those who sin without the law (drug addicts, gang-bangers, etc.) perish without the law, and those who sin in the law (religious hypocrites, conformists, etc.) are judged by the law. Christians are not supposed to live by the law, since its purpose is to restrain sinners who only need it beacuse they are sinners, whereas Christians by their nature ought to have no more need of such restraint than a sheep in a green pasture surrounded by desert needs a fence.

 

Are you suggesting Christians aren't sinners?

 

In my observations of the Christians I know, its all relative. The reason being is that there is no one universally accepted way to interpret the Bible.

Do I live by moral absolutes? Yes. Do I apply my moral absolutes to others... I try not to, or at very least I try to limit the the number of absolutes that would effect my views of another. For example, I do not hang around people who lie... it violated a moral absolute that I cannot ignore. On the other hand I am against abortion, but I have no problem with those who are for abortion.

We all have a line in the sand... just in a different position to one degree or another.

 

YES!

 

And people violate even those absolutes they say they stand on.
Ever told anyone they looked very handsome in that suit, when they really didn't? You can, I'm sure, find your own variation on that theme, and then you will start to parse the kind of lies that really "count".

 

Do you believe then that people shouldn't have any boundaries and hindrances on anything they do?

 

The Ten Commandments does not mention anything about lying, it says that one should not bear false witness. There is a big difference between complimenting someone, whether it's true or not, and bearing false witness against someone, since the one gratifies a person, and the other destroys a person.

Also there are situations in which telling the truth would be more harmful than not telling the truth, so we have to differentiate. For instance if someone swinging a gun asked you where a certain person is, you certainly wouldn't tell them the truth. If though you compliment a person in order to manipulate them in some way, then it would be a sin even if it is the truth.

Come on Bruce, considering the culture you have been raised in you should know these things.

 

If you are confused, you did it to yourself.

I in no way suggested that, and its impossible anyway.

 

Actually interpreting the Bible differently doesn't have anything to do with morality, or with the basic precepts of Christianity. All Christians accept the Ten Commandments, and the Creed in the same way they accept Jesus Christ, otherwise they wouldn't be Christians. As for people who lie, I personally cannot stand people who manipulate, or try to control others whether they are lying or not. I have had enough of sociopaths. If though on the other hand they are lying because they suffer from some sort of complex, it doesn't bother me. Let them have their fun.

 

Appreciate what you're saying, but the person I was responding to said he wouldn't associate with anyone that lies. Perhaps your post should be addressed at him, not me.
Mine was.
You have taken a tangent and made it sound like it was what I was saying.
Read his post, then read mine.
Then see if you can delete yours.
I did get a kick out of your parsing what "false witness" means. You left yourself a nice "get out of jail free" card so you don't have to cope with the moral absolute that the commandment defines.
In your parsing, you can lie if it makes someone feel good. Not sure that is really what that commandment is suggesting.
But hey, faith is there to make you feel good, so if that helps you, enjoy!

 

Let me begin by stating that I have a different view of Christianity than most... However, I think I am more capable of backing up my beliefs with the doctrines of Christ than mainstream Christianity can.

The bible explicitly states that a real Christian does not commit sin.

Moreover, why do you think Jesus came to call, not the righteous, but the sinners unto repentance? It's not because everybody sins... It is because the righteous have no need of repentance because the righteous do not sin.

Many people have a gross misunderstanding of Jesus' statements such as, "Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter the Kingdom of Heaven." People attempt to make this some sort of existential statement about how the Pharisees tried to keep the law and failed and so this somehow means the law is impossible to keep and that we don't have to even try. But the statement is exactly what it says. Unless you are more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees in your actions and therefore your life, here upon earth, then you will not see Heaven.

As far as the OP... morality is not subjective. It cannot be. We may not know with 100% certainty what the absolute moral action is in some cases, but that does not mean that one does not exist.

 

Bruce, I apologize for not understanding fully what you said.. As for moral absolutes, we have to separate Christian morality from the stringent black and white code of ethics which is part of our Western culture. The Commandment says not to bear false witness and it means exactly what it says. We are not to witness about someone, and say that which is not true. This is calumny and it is equivalent to murder. If I said though that I caught a fish fifteen inches long, and it really was nine inches, I am not hurting anyone, it just means I'm prone to exaggeration. I mean who am I witnessing about, the fish?

Another interesting Commandment is the one about coveting another's goods. We consider coveting a lust or desire to have what another person has, yet this is not the real meaning. I have actually met people in other cultures who covet people's goods just so they can feel they have triumphed over them.

 

In your fish example you would be bearing false witness to the person you were lying to regarding its size. Bearing false witness is simply observing something and then reporting a falsehood to someone regarding what you have seen. It's a lie, and it doesn't provide the convenient out you wish it did. This is the perfect example of people trying to wiggle out of the moral absolutes they claim to adhere to. They do so only as far as it remains comfortable, and then we hear the "except".
What point are you trying to make about your cultural absolute of "don't covet" when using examples from cultures that don't share it to begin with? How are they relevant to your argument?

 

But it also says no one is without sin, no not one.
So there's that.

 

The answer to this will have different meanings depending on who interprets it.

Judaism has the ten commandments. Within the realm of judaism these are all absolute.

I am the Lord, your God.
Thou shall bring no false idols before me.
Do not take the name of the Lord in vain.
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
Honor thy father and thy mother.
Thou shall not kill/murder.
Thou shall not commit adultery.
Thou shall not steal.
Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
Thou shall not covet your neighbor's wife (or anything that belongs to your neighbor).

From these basics judaism developed a very intricate set of rules as to how to obey them and how to rectify mistakes. These intricacies are found in Leviticus.

Jesus seems to have simplified them by saying that love was the central commandment. So we end up with two commandments in christianity.
1. Love god. 2. Love each other.

Loving god causes a christian to obey the first four commandments. Loving each other covers the rest.


Now we can go on and on about how all the scriptures are full of examples of god and jesus hypocrisy. Applying gods absolute morals to god is amusing.

As I first stated the answer has different meaning depending on who interprets it.

 

I think you misunderstand that statement. In the same book it states:

1 John 3:4-10 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Just because you HAVE sinned in the past, while that makes you a sinner, it does NOT mean that you must continue to do so.

 

Why do you think Jesus was so certain that the men would turn away when he asked the one without sin should throw the stone? Because he knew none can escape it.
Do you actually think you are sinless, or are you merely cleansed by his death?