Legalize Pot – Reduce Crime?

Discussion in 'Drugs, Alcohol & Tobacco' started by longknife, May 14, 2014.

  1. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

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    You quoted that part of my post



    It is not weed but probably something else .
    Addiction is a very heavy word to use randomly , i am a heavy drinker and when i say heavy i mean myself and my peers considered me an alcoholic... until i went a month without booze and didn't miss it at all . It is not 100% sure that abuse will lead to addiction.
     
  2. flounder

    flounder In Memoriam Past Donor

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    Problem being they wont reign it in, they want it both ways. It is not the freedom of smoking pot the politicians are basically interested in, they could give a damn about your freedom. It is the larger part of the agenda, the decriminalization. As I said,,agenda...
     
  3. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Screw what they think. The only question you need to answer is this - "am I justified in forcibly caging someone for smoking a joint". If you settle on yes - then go ahead. If you settle on no, then no matter the hypocrisy of the left, you should support legalization.

    I agree with you on the cannabis movement being largely hypocritical when it comes to tobacco, but you're not responsible for their opinions, you're responsible for your own.

    [hr][/hr]

    As I was writing this I vaped some. Do you want to imprison me. That's the question.
     
  4. flounder

    flounder In Memoriam Past Donor

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    Yes, I know all that, but it had to be said because some think differently. It will not lower crime, and it will cause more addiction in my opinion.

    I'm still on the fence with this thing, I have to think about it more. I vote ''present'' LOL
     
  5. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Pot should be legal to grow like any other plant or vegetable and just left at that. No government regulation, no extra taxes etc. There are weeds that grow in your backyard that can kill you.....Shouldn't they be illegal?
     
  6. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not so. I have evidence that they are not using the harder drugs already. Your position implicitly assumes that people will necessarily want harder drugs. If your proposition was correct, people would already be skipping pot for the "laced pot" or the many harder drugs that are already out there.

    But they don't. Like some refer to have a glass of wine as opposed to knocking down a fifth of whiskey, there are millions of people who smoke pot and like it have have no desire to use harder substances. And there is no reason to think they would stop using pot and move to illegal harder drugs because pot is legalized.

    The fact that they don't suggests otherwise.

    I actually have, and it wasn't bad! But the point is, I don't go out an buy illegal moonshine because I think I can get more wasted on it. Same is true for pot.

    Why would there be more stronger illegal substances?

    That is entirely nonsense and baseless.

    In 2012, marijuana was the most commonly used illicit drug, with 18.9 million users. It was used by 79.0 percent of current illicit drug users. About two thirds (62.8 percent) of illicit drug users used only marijuana in the past month.
    See more at: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Drug_Usage#sthash.lr4rJe8G.dpuf

    The vast majority of people using illegal drugs use marijuana, and the vast majority of those aren't using harder drugs.

    So again, if the only reason that people smoke pot is that they want to get as (*)(*)(*)(*)ed up as possible, then why aren't they using harder drugs?

    It's because as the evidence shows, many like the mellow buzz they get from marijuana and aren't interested in doing harder drugs. Or they would be doing it.

    That fact undermines your (baseless) position that crime will not decrease when pot is legalized because people will stop using legal, cheaper marijuana and instead start using illegal, more dangerous drugs.
     
  7. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here's another source, showing that in the past month 18.9% of people 12 and older used marijuana in the past month, compared to 1.6% cocaine, 1.1% hallucinogens, 0.5% inhalants, and 0.3% heroin.

    If your take on human nature was correct, and that people who smoke marijuana want something that is as strong as possible, we'd expect to see the percentages of marijuana uses more equivalent to harder drug users.
     
  8. flounder

    flounder In Memoriam Past Donor

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    Nonsense?, baseless? This post can be answered very easily,,I said....

    ''They are, and have been. ''Some'' just moved on to different drugs altogether....

    Also you state....''That fact undermines your (baseless) position that crime will not decrease when pot is legalized because people will stop using legal, cheaper marijuana and instead start using illegal, more dangerous drugs''

    Two things,,
    One,,,,again, ''some'' will...
    Second, That was not my only claim, the dealers will just find something else to push, possibly just a cheaper cost of pot to the consumer. This can easily be achieved through a lower over head and no tax. They will also be able to push more since the law has made it legal to consume. You could equate it to the American Indians selling cigarettes and selling it cheaper. N.Y alone losses Billions to them....

    Do you really think the criminals are just going to ''give up'' on Pot? ,,,seriously?
     
  9. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    OK, I agree that some small portions of pot smokers will suddenly decide to use harder, illegal drugs when pot is legalized, because there is some small percentage of people that just like doing illegal things, I suppose.

    But that doesn't support your position that legalization won't impact crime in a significant way.

    Again, you're basing your position on baseless suppositions and unfounded claims.

    It may be that some people will grow pot and commit tax evasion crimes. But because it is legal and anyone can do it, you have driven costs down and taken a big chunk of the profit out of the criminal enterprise.

    Just like they did with alcohol. You really think big business is going to let two bit criminals muscle in on their now legal product ,,,seriously?
     
  10. flounder

    flounder In Memoriam Past Donor

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  11. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They were cheaper because of lower taxes, not because they were made and distributed illegally.

    Going cheaper is a good thing. It guts the crime organization profits. Lower profits, lower motivation for the crime.

    See what as a viable comparison? Cigarettes? You don't see criminals pushing laced cigarettes. You don't see criminal gangs funded by cigarette profit.

    We have first hand experience with alcohol and alcohol prohibition. We know that it was made illegal, criminal gangs made huge fortunes and had great power from illegally importing alcohol and distilling illegal moonshine. The 1920-30s were pinnacle of corruption and gang power.

    We know that when prohibition was lifted, the illegal booze trade stopped almost over night.

    We saw people going back to drinking legal alcohol. We did not see a large portion moving to illegal laced alcohol to get wasted faster.

    You don't see pushers selling moonshine and criminal gangs funded by alcohol anymore.

    None of our experience with alcohol supports your position.

    Cigarette are big business. I don't see pushers on street corners trying to sell cheaper, higher nicotine laced cigarettes. Nor do we have criminal gangs being funded by the tobacco trade.
     
  12. flounder

    flounder In Memoriam Past Donor

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    Cheaper is cheaper I doubt people care how or why. Besides Pot shops have a higher over head than street corner guys.



    That's exactly what the Indians did with cigarettes, but to them it was gutting the government and Reynolds Tobacco. Pretty easy to do.



    Why would they lace cigarettes?, people like them they way they are they do not want them stronger. They are cigarette smokers, not pot heads LOL
    Yes we do have gangs funded by criminals, here on LI we have had several murders, the reservations are all controlled criminally. We have known that for the longest time.



    I agree, alcohol is not the best example.

    My experience is with cigarettes...



    The lacing of cigarettes is not the lure for many [They would lace Pot though], the cheaper price would be a huge draw. Also the criminal element is very deep with cigarettes, they constantly raid places here on Long Island and Upstate NY,,mostly reservations.

    In protest of these raids huge eighteen wheelers have been burned and left on parkways to block roads. People do not think about the Mob in cigarettes, but they have been in it for some time. This is why we have been begging them to lower that tax's, NY loses over a Billion a year in tax's alone.
     
  13. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The difference is they weren't cheaper because they were illegal, as you are arguing for pot.

    And the difference is when they are cheaper, that is less profit for the criminal activity, if it exists at all.

    I don't think RJ suffered a lot.

    Why would they lace pot?

    People like pot the way it is and do not want to take stronger drugs.

    They are pot heads, not hard core drug users, LOL

    Gangs are funded by the profits from illegal activity.

    What is a better one?

    And you don't buy illegal laced cigarettes from your local pusher because you want a stronger fix.

    Already addressed. I don't doubt that some folks would try to illegally violate tax laws. But cheaper means less profit.

    It's tax avoidance. Nothing like the illegal drug trade. Criminal gangs for the most part are not funded with the illegal cigarette or trade.
     
  14. flounder

    flounder In Memoriam Past Donor

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  15. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  16. jpevans

    jpevans New Member

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    Legallizing pot alone will do little toward reducing crime, addictive drogs are the bulk of the gang related crime. Decriminalizing addictive drugs & putting them in the hands of Doctors will kill the insentive ofthe artificially huge proffits gangs realize from selling & the turf wars that are a part of the business of blackmarket drugs. IMO
    :oldman:

     
  17. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is certainly true that illegal trade in harder drugs will continue, but I question your implicit suggestion that the pot trade is minimal in funding criminal gangs. For example, my understanding is that the criminal border gangs in Mexico are largely funded by illegal marijuana trafficking. Are you aware of any data that supports your position?
     
  18. jpevans

    jpevans New Member

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    Legalization will make it harder (not imposible) for underaged folks to get. As things stand, any 8th grader can score weed.
    :oldman:

     
  19. flounder

    flounder In Memoriam Past Donor

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    Perhaps,,but same criminals, still illegal crap, still people locked up. Personally I believe the Government wants people to make money with it, especially this administration, they do not want them punished.
    Personally I really don't care.......

    Thank you for a interesting debate Iriemon. I think we both had good points....
     
  20. flounder

    flounder In Memoriam Past Donor

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    Naaa, it will be easier for the kids. Street corner sales will go way up...It's prolly the kids that will sell it. The reason is it will be all over, much more than before,,,and it will be in their price range too.

    I contend this, wherever people can make a buck they will...
     
  21. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    8th graders have no problem acquiring alcohol or cigarettes despite legal age restrictions...
     
  22. flounder

    flounder In Memoriam Past Donor

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    Of course, this stuff will be all over now,,,,all over. Everything works that way, make it more accessible to some, it becomes more accessible to every one.
     
  23. jpevans

    jpevans New Member

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    Having been in various aspects of Marijane distrabution for 20+ years, from smuggling, transporting, wholesale & retail, I'll tell you that there is a lot of overhead assosiated with getting pot to the consumer, from bribery, to product confencated, bail money, lawyers, to the fact that every person who has a hand on it, wants to be well compensated for the risk involved.
    :oldman:

     
  24. jpevans

    jpevans New Member

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    Pot has a lower proffit than addictive drugs per pound. Mexican Cartles did take over the Mexican pot trade, much as the mafia took over the garment industry, because they could & there's $$$ to be made, but pot is still just a sideline.
    :oldman:

     
  25. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't doubt that is true, but OTOH pot has represented far more of the amount of drugs in terms of poundage.
     

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