USS Liberty Remembered At Navy Memorial

You sound like someone about to do a prostate exam.

 

That is what happened. They took the sightings off the board. I mean you can make had they left them on longer it could have avoided the mistake. Certainly the IAF admitted that but as you said it was also routine to wipe the board clean as they did when they did.

It certainly does not prove any conspiracy just an unintended communication break down.

We also know because the Americans admitted it, they did not tell the Liberty to remove itself from the area where the US told Israel it was not until after the attack.

Put those two errors or factors together and presto you have a breakdown from both sides. It's not a conspiracy just a series of mistakes.

As you know conspirators don't believe mistakes are possible. Everything runs in smooth precision because the Zionist conspiracy is run by Zionist Borgs (called Bergs of course) and Americans who are brainwashed by Zionist Borgs.

 

Nah...there's enough factoids to throw around to support either side...It's who we want to be the good guy

In my case its the US....Yours?
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Another thing that hasn't been mentioned I think.

1) Israeli worries about possible attacks along their exposed coastline.
2) The naval portion of the IDF feeling distinctly 'inferior" and "less prestigious" than the air and armored forces.

Reportedly #2 led to a competition of sorts between IDF air forces and naval forces regarding who could react quickest.

Thus it is quite possible that the 4 Israeli warplanes rushed their attack in order to "win" before Israeli naval forces could arrive.

It does appear to me that the Israeli torpedo boats spent far more effort trying to identify the U.S.S. Liberty during the heat of battle. Ironic that it was the single torpedo hit that caused most of the fatalities aboard the ship.

 

QUOTE=MVictorP;1064224934]

1-There could be a lot of things that the Israelis didn't want outsiders to knows, about the Golan or anything else. I don't think the Israelis liked that - they never did.

2-Even when spotted the Liberty didn't even moved at 10knts. That's quite slow, you see.

3-So, the Israelis were now stuck with a useless air force, right? Strange - most sides who ever had aerial domination tend to use it. How much do you know about war/naval warfare/startegy, exactly?[/QUOTE]

In regards to 1- you are not psychic. You do not know what Israel was thinking or what its motives are. You offer a speculated motive that simply evidences what your perconceived subjective bias is. You see what you want to see and therein lies the blatant weakness in your presentation-you speculate with ZERO basis other than to say "you think" and no you do not "think" you in fact "believe". In the context of what you stated you showed no thinking process, just a subjective presumption which is a belief not a thought.

In regards to 2, there is no dispute that the USS Liberty was travelling at 28 to 33 knots, somewhere in that range. The log books of the Liberty showed that. That speed using naval protocol at the time between the US and Israel was understood to only be used by naval craft. Neither side disputes that just you.

In regards to 3, no one stated Israel was "stuck with a useless airforce" what ever that means. What was stated and you clearly did not understand it was:

i-the Egyptian air force was knocked out in day 1 of the fighting;
ii-the Syrian Air Force, Lebanon, Jordan, still had some MIGS functioning;
iii-the Egyptian navy was still operational and it had vessels not just freighters that
looked like the USS Liberty;
iv-Egypt in fact still had frigates, submarines, missile boats in operation;
v-the Soviet navy was also off the coast of Israel and had advised the US it
would attack Israel from off its coast with an amphibian attack if Israel shot missiles
or entered Damascus or Cairo;
vi-both Israel and the US knew about v;
vii-the US was worried about a Soviet nuclear attack on Israel;
viii-at the time of this war, teh Soviets and US had come close to nuclear war many a time and
people were edgy about a nuclear war;
ix-Israel had nuclear weapons at the time and said if it was under nuclear attack by teh Soviets it
would use its own;
x-the Soviets and the US did not want a war and were both trying to find a way to get both sides
to back down;
xi-you clearly know nothing about air strategy or Israel military strategy-the IAF was used to knock out the opposing air forces and to defend against opposing air craft-it was not designed to engage in naval warfare or ground warfare.

The IAF used fast mobile tanks on the ground and did not use air support for tank war which you clearly do not understand.

The IAF would be used as it was for dropping napalm or letting down machine gun fire, not for tanks but pinned down troops in mountain areas not desert warfare.

The IAF did not have sufficient pilots or fuel to mount an air campaign other than what it did. It was already over extended with pilots flying without sleep for days.

The ground wars on the West Bank called for some air support but because of the cramped fighting quarters was not used because of friendly fire concerns.

The IAF had already the day before the Liberty incident accidentally blown up its own tanks with friendly fire pointing to something you clearly do not understand-using air support with tanks can lead to friendly fire. It happened to the US as well in the Gulf War and this is why its not used when tanks are being used.

Open air desert war does not require air support when its tank v. tank.

Where the air force might have been needed was on the Golan to neutralize certain mountain regions from being used to shoot at Israeli troops on the ground.

What was said was that if Israel was planning a false flag to sink a US ship to sucker it into the war it would have used an Egyptian MIG not identifiable Israeli aircraft and no you don't send the fighters Israel did because marking or no marking Egypt never had them in their air force, only Israel did.

More to the point and you haven't grasped it, you send a plane with a proper bomb not napalm. The reason the jets sent were shooting at the boat with napalm and machine guns is because they were called away from another battle and clearly were not planned to sink a ship which makes the premeditated theory retarded.

No you do not sink a plane with napalm or machine gun fire.

As well if you are involved ina false flag you wouldn't use Israeli torpedo ships with Israeli flags and were ships once again the Egyptians did not have.

 

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If that's where your mind is.
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Once again the <finger pointing> my retorts to you are as benign as benign can be, I mean vis a vis your pro Arab stance and your hate of Jews and Israel. Tomorrow, you would probably go as far as finding faults with a Jew walking to the Temple... Your old country was responsible for the death of 3 Million Jews does that mean anything to you?

 

I think both the US and Israel made a series of mistakes. I see neither government as "bad guys" and in the sense you use it I think both the crew of the USS Liberty and the Israelis who shot at them were good guys and this was friendly fire.

I think the USS Liberty was a necessary part of the US presence and had Israel known its proper location it would have never fired on it.

Israel knew the US was monitoring the Soviets in that area.

Open mind? How far do we go with this speculation. Should I make up a theory the Israelis crippled the USS Liberty because they thought it was assisting an attack on the Soviets and they did not want the US to attack the Soviets and drag the Soviets into the war?

How far do we go with these theories?

My bias is for BOTH the US and Israel.

I have an open bias in favour of Colin Powell's approach to the Middle East when he was State Secretary and I liked the approaches of Einsehower and Clinton and LBJ.

LBJ was as good a friend as you could get for Israel.

I also have an open bias for Yitzhak Rabin and the Labour Party when he ran it.

I have never hidden that on the board.

I also do not hide my anti Obama foreign policy bias. I believe there is a crying need for a strong US military presence in the Middle East.

Then again I am a Canadian. I have no right to expect Americans to continue carrying the weight of the world on their shoulders but the reality is since Obama has been in charge and all but castrated US world presence I think its created a vacuum that has enabled terrorism and Putin and Chinese imperialism to flourish.

That's just my opinion. Take off that glove and stop telling me to breath in. I like the US and do not apologize for it. I say the same for Israel. Then again if you read my posts I also believe Palestinians have a right to a state and hope they can shed their terrorist oppressors with their fundamentalist extreme Muslim concepts and march into the world where the IRA headed when they disarmed.

 

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How about a little pith?
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Answering a charge of factoid barrages with more factoids....didn't notice
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Ok first you ask me to open my mind. Now little bit of pith?

Man you got the wrong forum.

 

Okay your post is quite long, and I don't have much time for now - later I'll read it more attentionally. Here I'll just refute a point which I just can't let pass:

As you'll see in the coming link, USS Liberty was a Victory-class ship that had a maximum speed of 17.5knts, 21knts in emergency output, which makes it quite fast for a transport but far from the 28-33 knts of military ships. 33knts is the speed of a destroyer, for crying out loud. You have been fed crap. Ponder about this while I'll come back to you later - fear not.

 

Hey bud - I'm back! I noticed you've been quite silent since my last post, you who have been known for your prodigality.

(And since we're around the subject, I thought that a poster of your experience would at least have learned to quote, or to form cohesive paragraphs. You text isn't among the most easy to read, let me tell you. Just an observation.)

In matters where I pretend to some knowledge, I prefer an empirical observation rather than one made by theorical specialists (which I could believe in a domain where I claim no interests) at my place. I did not say that it's what happened, I say what I think happened. And I can explain why I think so.

Air superiority is no slight advantage. Once you have it, you use it to support ground troops, harass the ennemy, observation, interception, bombing etc. One doesn't put so much ressources to win air superiority just for its own sake.

As I have written about twelve times now but still didn't light that green light on, is that the fighters were not meant to sink the ship - that was the Fast Attack Crafts' (or Torpedo Crafts) job. The fighters were there to merely "tenderize" the ship before the MTB assault. I believe it was a hasty, improvised decision, hence the weird armement of the fighters.

Finally, no matter the contemporary Israeli successes, it was still not enough to make the 6-day war into a 4-day one.

 

Glad you're back buddy, now you can answer why on earth the US was needed so much that Israel would be willing to go to war with them while you say they were still in the middle of a war in which you contend they so needed the US to help them and considering the 'tenderizing' didn't really do that great of a job, there may have been a lot of Israeli bodies floating around from the machine gun fire from the Liberty which would give away the fact it was Israelis who attacked the Liberty and declared war on the US rather than the Egyptians.

So, answer please.

 

Their primary goal was not, IMO, to have the US in the war - it was to shoot down the spy ship, and to make it appear that it was the Gyppos. It was, still IMO, a botched false-flag operation.

 

I see. And what possible reason would be worth it to risk bringing the US into the war on the side of the Egyptians and Russians to destroy Israel once they had achieved victory in the Sinai and were about to destroy the Syrian forces?

And glad to see you are back in form once again as a CT'r so that you can also answer the bonus question of;

If they were declaring war defacto against the US and everything depended on them getting away unseen, which Egyptian ships were they going to blame this attack on, why were these ships never mentioned as being in the area, why did they not use enough power to actually do the job, how did they know they would not be reported during the attack or before and why did they not disquise their aircraft and boats with lots of Egyptian colors and markings and why, to this day has nobody explained what gain there was and how they were going to do it?

After all, the US had the power to destroy Israel easily and still does.

 

so why didn't they finish the job?

 

In my estimation the UK and Poland should apologize to the world for all the slaughter and the destruction of humanity.
Imperial UK were the worse in history.

 

You might also want to write something about the USS Cole and the USS Pueblo... being so sanguine about the USS Liberty is turning to be <religion> for you!

 

Seeing the markings of a flying supersonic aircraft is a difficult matter as they are usually far and fast, and like for ships, one has to rely on the aicraft's shape and type for national identification purposes, but in this case both Egypt and Israel had crafts that came from abroad. The torpedo crafts (which were French-made) could have been from any country if they weren't flying any flag.

Well, simply, the operation was a failure for Israel. They had a window of opportunity for which they diverted what they considered sufficient wartime ressources, but they missed it, and any further attacks would made deniability impossible. It was certainly not for lack of trying.

All in my most miserable opinion, of course.

 

No, Poland was emphatically not responsible for the deaths of those people, and non-Jewish Poles were ruthlessly murdered in their millions as well, lest you forget. You are a misguided fool if you believe otherwise. I suggest you get some professional help with your obsessive hatred. It isn't healthy, but do feel free to take your bitterness to your grave. It's your life to do as you wish with, not mine

Poland's 6 million civilian war deaths, about one fifth of the population, were split 50/50 with Jews and non-Jews. Who was responsible for those 3 million non-Jewish deaths, do you think? You don't care, do you?

Zegota was the only organisation in the entirety of Nazi occupied Europe set up with the sole intention of aiding Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Żegota

 

Well then it is a good thing that days earlier, known to all, Egypt's air force was destroyed along with her runways and airfields making it impossible for the aircraft to come from any other source than Israel as they wre the only country with aircraft that could strike that area. And since the boats were flying Israeli flags all knew it was Israel.

A fifteen minute attack and they then lost their window of opportunity? What to you was the window of opportunity, fourteen minutes? Sixteen?

 

I read about Zegota, and I know what Zegota accomplished... just a token... but 3 Million Jews died because the hating Poles like many on this forum were descendents of these same Poles who rounded the Jews up for the Nazis to be slaughtered.
Speaking of fools... There are those Poles that pretend and those active ones still alive who still hate Jews with passion...

 

Guilt by association, sins of the father? Is that the stupid position you're adopting? The Holocaust was over 70 years ago. It's way past time you moved on,. grew up and understood that, however horrific those events were, we don't need constant reminders, and neither do we need miserable, hate-filled obsessives ruining our day every time they come onto the forum. Get a life!

 

Seems from the amount of Holocaust revisionism and denialism in the world today (some on these very forums) that reminders are required. Such violent hate can and never should be permitted to be swept under the rug - for the sake of all humanity.