The U.S. has far more gun-related killings than any other developed country

I just said which one kills more people. The "guns don't kill people, people kill people argument" is a strawman. In this case the weaker argument that your inferring to my point is that guns kill people all by themselves. No one actually believes that and I'm not saying that. All pro-gunners and anti-gunners acknowledge that firing a gun takes human intervention. The stronger argument being concealed by your strawman is that people with guns kill more people than do people without guns. 67%-33% so logically focusing on the larger number is the way to bring the total down. Once stabbing people becomes more prevalent than we can start talking about knife control, but right now were talking about gun control.

 

So by your argument, we can ban knives, poison, alcohol,ropes, cars, and fists and murders would be stopped. You are punishing the innocent for the advantage of the criminal who will not obey whatever law you pass.

Your reply never answered jdog's question.

 

Were not banning anything were restricting access. When you create a black market for something there is risk involved which drives the price up. If it costs $2000 for a handgun to rob a corner store it suddenly doesn't become worth it. How you impliment that I don't know. You can go into numerous parts of the deep web here in Canada and attempt to purchase online black market firearms but its not cheap and that area of the web is monitered by all kinds of agencies, it's much easier to go get your FAC and do it the legit way, provided you qualify which is where most criminals throw in the towel.

 

Its easier for one person to kill many people with a firearm than with club. And if you miss with a club you do not have to worry about it passing through the bedroom wall of a home 200 yards away killing some innocent person. That and roughly 10k firearm related homicides per year in the USA is just atrocious.

 

It would also mean that only the rich can afford to defend themselves against crime. You sound like 0bama wanting to raise the price of energy so that green energy can compete with oil. Meanwhile the average citizen is left paying for your vision of utopia.

How can the people have a right to keep and bear arms if the government manipulates the gun market so that only the wealthy can afford them? How is that a government of, by, and for the people? I am not a subject. I don't want cake.

 

why?...we allow people to own guns where many countries dont...but how amny murders do the other countries have compared to us...england doesn t allow guns but had a beheading jsut the other day...how many beheading did we have? none

 

So is 56 million people murdered by their own governments in the 20th century after they were systematically disarmed. How many disarmed countries are being ravaged by armed religious extremists across the Middle East and Africa? I'll keep my guns and you can punish those responsible for the negligent firearms deaths. I will help you convict them. The 2A is an individual right. It cannot be taken collectively.

If you haven't noticed, our federal government has tried to erase our Southern border with Mexico. We have millions of people in our country who have sneaked over and brought their crime and diseases with them. Many of these countries have far worse gun crime with far fewer guns. Maybe you can abandon America, but this is my home. I have taken an oath to defend the American Constitution and that is what I will do in every way I can.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/gun-homicides-ownership/

You would have us be like China, who will not release statistics to the world and will squash the opportunity of it's subjects by taking away their rights.

 

Lets just let that red herring flop around on the floor for a minute before we slap in on the grill and serve it up for dinner.

Now let me address your red herrings.

And this has what to do with what I said in post #29? Are you one of those conspiracy theorists who think that Obama is coming for your guns? You believe in the FEMA camps? You will still have your guns long after Obama has left office.

I do not know, you tell me. Again this has what to do with what I said in post #29?

And again again this has what to do with what I said in post #29? I want you to keep your guns as guns are not the problem. I will let the justice system handle those responsible for the negligent firearms deaths.

Any more red herrings for me or do you have some questions or statements that are germane to what I said in post #29?

 

Not necessarily the rich, If I can save up money and buy things I like then I'm sure the average American can too. Gun control has very little effect on what the average American pays, trust me the cost is less than minuscule here in Canada. It has nothing to do with what Obama is trying to do, that's a bad comparison.

It always returns to the 2nd amendment though and the paranoia that protects it. The what if scenario. Eventually after a generation or two no one will really remember. People will grow accustom to it and gun homicides will go down and America can start telling other nations with large gun crime how great their gun control is and that they should adopt the same laws. Trust me it won't be that bad.

 

I've stated this in previous control threads and I'll state it here again. Harvard thinks gun control is rubish http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/...d-gun-study-no-decrease-in-violence-with-ban/. (Pointing out that they report gun control doesn't help lower violent crime.) I'll take guns and less violence please.

I also believe a big portion of our problem with gun violence is culture and poverty. If you look at the deaths in the USA the majority of those are in major cities. If you look closer at the cities the majority of the gun violence occurs in the poorest and gang heavy portions of the cities, or is deemed gang related by Police. What can fix this I don't know, but that appears to be the problem areas.

 

Correlation is not causation. England has had far lower intentional homicide rates for over a century, without any real gun control laws.

As far as education, you're actually quite mistaken. The U.S. doesn't have bad schools, the U.S. has more freedom in schools. You often hear that the U.S. is at or near last of OECD countries in education, but check this out: Overall, the U.S. ranked sixth in fourth-grade reading, ninth in fourth-grade math, 12th in eighth-grade math, seventh in fourth-grade science and 13th in eighth-grade science. Why do you think it drops so much? Could it possibly be because in most other countries only the best students go on to preparatory schools? Other countries weed kids out, thereby boosting their scores. We don't do that.

 

Wow, that's good to know. That means the reason given for all these illegals coming up from South and Central America is total malarkey. Obviously this country is far more dangerous then those that they are coming from. Hell, it is even more dangerous then the whole middle-east, and Ukraine where they are fighting wars. I guess I should just go out and by a gun to protect my family.

 

My point is that if someone accidentally shoots the wrong person, they will pay for it. That's the law in TX(and I assume the rest of the US) and I have no problem with it. If you don't want to take guns, what are you proposing? The rest of my comments were so you can see where I am coming from. If you want to try to try to make me look like a conspiracy nut, have at it.

 

What are you talking about? The United Kingdom has had some form of gun control legislation since at least 1903. Any person possessing a firearm in the U.K. must posses a Shotgun Certificate or a Firearm Certificate. Machine guns, pepper spray, semi-automatic, and pump-action rifles, and any firearm that has a barrel less than 30 cm in length are prohibited. The only firearms that can be owned legally in the UK are shotguns, black powder weapons, manually-loaded cartridge pistols and manually-loaded centre fire rifles, all termed "Section 1" firearms. To gain a firearm certificate, applicants must be over age 14, and must demonstrate they have satisfactory security and "good reason" to own a rifle. Applicants must declare all criminal convictions and name two references to support the application. Applications must be renewed every five years. The requirements are largely the same for a shotgun certificate, although the applicant doesn't need two references, only one counter-signatory — and there is no minimum age.
Anyone convicted of a criminal offence can't even handle a gun for five years. If the sentence involved more than three years in prison, there is a lifetime ban. It's even public policy that most of their police officers don't carry firearms on them. I don't know where you're getting your information about the united Kingdom but I'm afraid it's incorrect.

We have preparatory schools here in Canada like the US does but less than 1% of the population uses them. We don't have any in the city that I'm from and I don't know a single person that has attended one and our scores are always higher than the US. In fact out of all developed nations in the world the US spends the most on all levels of education and although may do ok in some categories they always finish around 20th place.

 

The UK is not America. I don't care how they do gun laws. I hope they are happy with whatever laws they have. I am comfortable with my gun laws and would like to have as much freedom as possible. An armed "victim pool" is a huge deterrent to crime. Every burglar, rapist, robber, or arsonist that eats a bullet from a law abiding citizen is a solved problem and I will celebrate it. I also have no problem convicting idiots who cause accidents with guns. Personal responsibility goes hand in hand with personal freedom.

When Canada starts taking on millions of illiterate immigrants and can maintain their rankings on test scores, I'll be impressed.

 

If I was a criminal living in a country with an armed victim pool my first thought would be to arm myself because my victims are sure to be armed as well. My second thought would be that it would be far easier to just kill my victim from the shadows and take what I can off their cold dead bodies than to just rob them at gun point and hope they don't pull out their gun and shoot me first. Sounds cold blooded, but you'd be surprised what desperate people will do in a desperate time.

And my UK point was not directed at you it was directed at the gentleman whose post I was responding too who said that England has low homicide rates and little gun control.
That's the difference between Canada and the US, we don't take in illiterate immigrants. We have standards. They may not be super high standards but they're higher than America's and that's all that matters.

 

You don't know how long a century is?

Really? And it's been that way since before 1914? Because unless that's the case, that little bit you parroted was entirely extraneous.

Oh, you're referring to the wikipedia definition. Sorry, for whatever reason the term "college prep" was used differently where I grew up. We used it to refer to a school, or set of course, intended to prepare students for college, but we obviously used it more widely than the wiki entry permits. Quite generally we used it to refer to any school that wasn't vocational, special needs, etc. We didn't use it as a term for an elite private school, but to define any high school that intended to send kids off to college - which most, apart from vocational schools, do.

-_- It sounds like you didn't even read the post you responded to. You seem to have missed the point entirely. Perhaps this will help.



Students in Germany are set on 'paths' based on their early academic performance. Look, there's a reason why I point out specific bits. I didn't just randomly pull the 4th grade out of a hat, there is a reason. After the 4th grade Germany, and many other countries, start setting their students on these paths. By the 5th grade, it's basically been determined for nearly all students if they're going to university or not. This is actually pretty common outside of North America, and it's no mere coincidence that U.S. scores start sliding at this point, particularly on the PISA test. Do you know the PISA methodology?

 

Japan has a suicide rate that is higher than our combined murder and suicide rate. Japan's society is a pressure cooker that makes people want to kill themselves. I'll take my chances here.....

 

Because our society is the most violent when compared to other developed countries. Why is that even a question?

There are numerous reasons why we're so violent of course but that question wasn't asked.

 

oh, so it's ok that you don't want them there, but it is your desire to allow them here with their violence and drugs all the while stripping us of our Right to defend ourselves......................a true communist, I must say

 

If you would have read my post it began in 1903 which by my count would be going on 111 years so it seems you are the one who has a foggy idea on what a century is.

That's all fine and dandy for Germany, doesn't change the fact that in Canada we have the same system as you do and we still get higher test scores. Either way I don't know what your trying to prove here? That you have an extensive knowledge of preparatory schools? It has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

That's your problem padre. We make it very hard for illegal immigrants to make it very far here in Canada. All that's proving is the only solution you have to your immigrant problem is to arm your selfand wait for one to step out of line so you have an excuse to shoot them.

 

yep. stand them up next to any illegal drug selling Canadians caught in the US as well................Put a hole in them too large to plug with a VW beetle
See? I can be an extremist just like you............

 

So, to be clear, when I said that England has had a lower murder rate for over a century with no gun laws I was wrong - because 111 years isn't over a century? I'm feeling so foggy.

Which has more to do with demographic than with the school system. The U.S. has more children born to third world immigrants than Canada has children. Children who immigrated here from a third world country do worse, as is true in nearly all countries, but we have more of them. (I'm not even including Louisiana as a third world country )

What I'm proving is that your observations are incorrect, unexamined (at least by you), and no basis for forming any rational belief.

 

Haha I don't think you understand England has had gun laws since 1903 and their homicide rate has dropped. That would be over a century. I'm not sure if you just don't get your own point or if you're having trouble admitting you were wrong.

Okay? I just made on observation based on OECD standards and you said they don't accurately prove anything about education because of preparatory schools and now your trying to defend your statement by saying immigrant children are dumber than non-immigrant children.
So again i'll state what I said, based on OECD standards countries with a higher ranking in education, typically have some form of gun control. I don't see how you disproved that?

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Uh huh... Moving on...