Are the Palestinians the Jews NOT expelled from Judaea after Bar Kochba Revolt?

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by DennisTate, Feb 2, 2013.

  1. Thunderbolt

    Thunderbolt Active Member

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    First, would you like to quote not some dubious late 20th. century book, but any contemporary, i.e. late Roman / early Byzantinian account -no matter, whether Jewish or Christian- telling about mass conversion to Christianity of Israel's Jews -no matter, whether voluntary or forced one ?!

    Second, I have already twice quoted these words.

     
  2. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    Besides the previously quoted references of the Cambridge History of Judaism, and Roberto Bachi's 1974 work, I also quoted Fred Astren from the “Encyclopedia of the Jewish Diaspora: Origins, Experiences, and Culture, Volume 1 – Ed. Mark Avrum Ehrlich” (page 140) which you can find here:
    http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=381557&page=8&p=1064476129#post1064476129. Not one single refutation or even acknowledgement of these pieces of supporting evidence have been made by either HBendor or by Thunderbolt. They simply steam-rollers forward as though their postulations are unsullied and that no refutation ha ben offered to their thesis that Jews would not convert.

    So here is yet another nail in the coffin that the Palestinians are "Arabs" and that "Jews would rather die than convert", i.e. the Palestinian Jews became Palestinian Arabs (and did, naturally) not have a Hejaz origin):
    Regarding the misapplied word "Arab", according to Sadek Jawad Sulaimanis the former Ambassador of Oman to the United States: “The Arabs are defined by their culture, not by race … Beyond that, he or she might be of any ancestry.” KABOOOMMM!!!

    So can we agree that these scholarly works all demonstrate that Jews (and Christians and pagan slaves) did convert to Islam? If not, please provide evidence refuting these specific writings as being in error.

    I agree, Dennis, that the proof is more than sufficient to all who can read without blinding bias. I think that the evidence is overwhelming that the core of the early Roman Jewish population survived (other than for the expulsion from Jerusalem) and bit-by-bit, either elected to emigrate or converted (in part) to Christianity and/or Islam. Of course there were additions from the west (the Hellenistic settlers), from Egypt, from Anatolia, and from Arabia, but these were minorities compared to the existing population and did not disturb the core genetic line from continuing its march through to today from the ancient times in the Promised Land. This conclusion is PERFECTLY supported by modern genetic studies.
     
  3. Thunderbolt

    Thunderbolt Active Member

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    I have to repeat

    Or a contemporary (early Medieval) account about mass conversion of Israel's Jews to Islam ?
     
  4. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    I appreciate the above. What makes me certain or suspicious is that like always in Jewish History there were always some people (I do not want to mention names) i.e. Josephus Flavious = Joseph Ben Mattatiahu, that became traitors to the Jewish cause, wrote books to make a living and weren't afraid to trample on their own people... I am sorry I cannot ad anything to your request. Just a warning the Muslims by nature are LIARS and lying in Islam is not a sin. So whomever is a Muslim would deliberately lie to have an upper hand in a public debate.
     
  5. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    The Cambridge History of Judaism is some dubious late-20th century book??. The most comprehensive single collection of peer-reviewed data on the history of Judaism up until the end of the Byzantine period, is irrelevant??

    And Roberto Bachi, the most respected of all the Israeli demographers, produced some dubious late-20th C book - one that was supported by the office of the Prime Minister of Israel and the Hebrew University of Tel Aviv and is quoted in all serious discussions on the population of Israel???

    And Moshe Gill's seminal book, the most oft-quoted reference to the Jews in the Ottoman empire, the most comprehensive reference on the topic, and one which was originally published in Hebrew by Tel Aviv university, is DUBIOUS???

    Do you SERIOUSLY expect readers to be overwhelmed by that "(non)argument"?

    As Dennis noted, more than enough evidence has been produced. Should you be unable to read it with an unbiased eye, then no amount of verifiable supportive data from me will ever convince you. It is sad that zealous faith can produce such an outcome.
     
  6. Thunderbolt

    Thunderbolt Active Member

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    I have to repeat for the second (!) time

    If you cannot find such accounts -admit it !

    I am an ardent atheist.
     
  7. Thunderbolt

    Thunderbolt Active Member

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    Despite my strong respect for the Zealots I don't consider Joseph Ben Mattatiahu as traitor "trampling on (his) own people".
    Have you read "Against Apion" ?
     
  8. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    If Josephus is a liar, what remaining evidence is there for the claimed 70 AD Jewish diaspora. I seem to remember you referring to Josephus as your key source of this dispersal. In fact, when were the Jews ever forced out of Palestine during early-mid Roman times?
     
  9. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is what must not be discussed, the myth of the 70AD exodus. Even the BBC were "persuaded" not to show Jerusalem: An Archaeological Mystery Story. They finally aired the film heavily edited and with a discussion afterwards. Ironically Simon Schama's pseudohistory The Story of the Jews was shown without any problems!
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...exodus-Jewish-people-fall-Jerusalem-AD70.html
     
  10. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    The BBC has been accused of 'political naiveté' after dropping a controversial documentary which called into question the mass exile of Jewish people from Jerusalem in AD70 after their failed uprising against the Romans.


    The one-hour programme, Jerusalem: An Archaeological Mystery Story, was due to air on BBC4 last week but was scrapped at the last minute.


    Film maker Ilan Ziv accused the BBC of 'incompetence' and suggested they succumbed to 'conscious or subconscious political pressure' after they decided not to broadcast it.

    In a blog post, Mr Ziv said the decision to axe the programme was: 'Ultimately a sad saga of what I believe is a mixture of incompetence, political naiveté, conscious or subconscious political pressure and, I believe, a lack of courage of broadcasters when they are faced with the complexity of the Middle East issue and the intense emotions, fears and aggression it generates.'

    The Jews were expelled from Jerusalem following an uprising against the Romans, with hundreds of thousands killed and many more sent into exile.

    After the revolt there were still pockets of Jews left living in Jerusalem, but the centre of gravity for the Jewish people shifted to the Galilee.

    A Radio Times preview said the documentary, which questioned the scale of the exile, would have 'severe ramifications for relations in the region'.

    Dr Siam Bhayro, a University of Exeter senior lecturer in Early Jewish Studies, said the decision to axe the programme was 'strange', given the BBC's past record of airing controversial documentaries.


    And angry viewers took to the magazine's website to accuse the corporation of 'pandering to a small interest group.'


    Pat Heath wrote: 'Furious this has been pulled! After all the fuss last about how "Public interest Arguments" for showing flagship documentary on North Korea will be vehemently defended, but why is this quietly removed?'

    And samd11 added: 'Ridiculous pandering to a small interest group! The BBC used to ask the tough questions.....now they cower in fear due to some fundamentalist Zionists whose world vision is as warped as any other fundamentalist religious group.


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...people-fall-Jerusalem-AD70.html#ixzz3JuCbdv7E
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
     
  11. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    No need to, because both the Cambridge series and Moshe Gill's book provide them, being fully referenced with writings of the day. I have no intention of copying such individual references just because you demand that I do. If you are serious about wanting their sources, then I suggest that you research the two references that I provided - both being available on the WWW, and both having copious footnotes for your edification. I have found all the references that I could possibly need, and I have provided you with them.

    On the topic of (not) providing references - of the main Palestinian genetic line being derived from the Hejaz (as you claim it is) - if you cannot find evidence of mass population transfers from the Hejaz to Palestine, you in turn should admit it. I would even be satisfied with secondary summaries such as those that I provided you with, because I am quite capable of checking them myself. The ball is firmly in your court.

    Before you claim that your quote of Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi is proof that the Palestinians originally came from Arabia (the Hejaz specifically), please read your own source again. Then consider the following (already supplied:
    So 'Arabs' may refer to Berbers or to Palestinians without having any implication as to their distant geographical origin. Get it?

    Neither did Zuheir Mohsen refer to the Palestinians as originating in Arabia, in the sense of Arab = Arabia. Because Arab does not = Arabia. If it did, then why does the academic historic literature pay so much heed to the Arabisation / Arabization of various non-Hejaz people? Are the Berbers = Hejaz Arabs? Do the Dulaim Arabs come from Arabia? Do the Ma'an Arabs of Lebanon have Arabian origins? The Hatay Arabs also? The Palestinian Arabs? Zuheir Mohsen would have been foolish to mean that those people he referred to from the eastern Mediterranean all had Arabian origins. And he clearly would not have done so.

    So why do you quote him as proof that the Palestinians came from elsewhere? And where does he say that? If you mean that Mohsen was illustrating that the Palestinian national identity is a product of the late-20th Century, then use that in an appropriate debate, but please do not use it to imply that the Palestinians came from Arabia in relatively recent times. That simply does not stand up to scrutiny.
     
  12. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Yes not only read it but own it also. Joseph Ben Mattatiahu was present while his group one killed the other in his presence not to fall a slave to the Romans... he did not commit suicide like the others, yet surrendered to the Romans and somehow ended in Italy writing for the Roman Emperor.
     
  13. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Josephus wasn't at Masada and the Romans NEVER in history expelled any conquered peoples.
     
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  14. Thunderbolt

    Thunderbolt Active Member

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    I asked you three times for at least one contemporary (late Roman/early Medieval) account (and not some 20th century book), but you still fail to quote any !
    Learn history from the authentic sources and then we will (perhaps) continue our debate.
     
  15. Thunderbolt

    Thunderbolt Active Member

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    And anybody else should heed, what goals some "separate Palestinian identity", cooked up in the late 20th century (!) pursues

     
  16. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    and yet Rome brought hundreds of thousands of Jews to Rome as slaves.

    they built the Coliseum.
     
  17. Thunderbolt

    Thunderbolt Active Member

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    And many more had to flee Eretz Israel to escape the Roman/Byzantinian murderers.
     
  18. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Rome was full of Jews long before the crucifixion....The history of the Jews in the Roman Empire traces the interaction of Jews and Romans during the period of the Roman Empire (27 BC – AD 476). Jews, primarily from Western Asia, and Ancient Romans, primarily from Latium in central Italy, are ancient ethnic groups. Their cultures began to overlap in the centuries just before the Christian Era. Jews, as part of the Jewish diaspora, migrated to Rome from Alexandria, where they formed a significant part of the population..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Roman_Empire


    I doubt that they built the Coliseum... They never had any reputation as stone masons.. but they also like to claim they were enslaved and built the pyramids.
     
  19. Thunderbolt

    Thunderbolt Active Member

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    Well, the great Zealot leaders John of Giscala and Simon Bar Giora surrendered to the Romans too.
    Just like the Gallic national hero Vercingetorix.
    No matter, why all of them did it.
     
  20. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    yeah, and hundreds of thousands more Jewish slaves from Judea after AD 135
     
  21. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I was doing a bit of research to get accurate numbers for this…… but I think I ran into something even more intriguing?!


    http://www.jewishhistory.org/the-spread-of-christianity/

     
  22. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    The population of Judea was never very large because the ground was stony and their water was limited... Further, you should remember that King Hiram of Tyre built Solomon's temple.... modeled after temples in Baalbeck and Byblos.
     
  23. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    I wont call it naive, but the Arabs in their current behavier about the Jews in Israel is an ignoring of what was written in the Quran! because in the Quran was written that the Land of Israel is belong to the Jews, and with their behavier in the past years, even from before 1948 they are just ignoring what their prophet said!
    Furtheremore, I believe that the Arabs that against Israel and fight her is to fullfil the inspiration of the Pan-Arabism movement

    First of all, there is no connection between your opinion about the transformation of the avarge thought and behavier pattern of the Arabs and the Massiah in the Jewish religion!

    Secondly, the prophecy of Ezekiel in the Bible had bothing to do with the Arabs, simple because the Arabs of today is not the Arabs of the ancient times! and of course because his prophecy is talking about the returning of the Jewish people from the diaspora back to the Land of Israel.

    I read for you Zechariah chapter 14 again, and this chapter is talking about the prophecy of Zechatiah about the god itself, of what will happen on the Mt. of Olives in Jerusalem and from there the god will be revealed and then god will be the only god of all people.
    Which means that in this chapter there is no reference about Jesus or about the Massiah from the house of David! also it is a prophecy.

    Up until the 4th century the church take the whole 30 books that were and took from them only 4 books that fited their believe. Now what was written in Jeremiah 30:9, for example, wasnt talked about Jesus, because Jeremiah 30:9 is talking about that the massiah will came from the house of David.
    Now the church believed that Jesus was the descendant from the house of David, even if there wasnt any kind of evidence for it! they just made the people of the new religion- Christianity, to believe it's true by choosing some books that made Jesus a descendant from the house of David, and to make him the massaiah of Christianity.
    What the church did up until the 4th century was a delibarate seperation.

    As I already wrote to you Dannis, the reference that Christianity did between Jesus and the house of David was a delibarate action of the Church, therefore, it is irrelevent to talk about how, according to Jesus, John the Baptist is the modern Elijah and the massiah from the house of David.

    John the Baptist was a Jewish guy, as Jesus was, that been executed by Agrippa, that coperated with the Greaks, because he thought that John the Baptist was puting at risk his riegn.
    John the Baptist baptized Jesus to made him proper Jew, and the church after it took that baptizing, a Jewish custom, as a Christian one.

    The massiah will rise after armageddon will occour.
     
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  24. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I absolutely agree with this statement Stuntman!

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7665300/
    Qu'ran teaches that Jews must return to Israel in latter days.
    Most of us in the western democratic nations are terribly unaware of how differently Islamic Mystics and Sufi Moslems seem to view what the Qu'ran really teaches regarding the restoration of the Jewish people to the land of Israel in the latter days!


     
  25. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I will elaborate on some aspects of what I am asking at this time.

    Could the final Elijah……. as understood by many Christians turn out eventually to be Moshiach/ Messiah son of Joseph/ Ephrayim to the Jewish people…….. and the same person as the Muslims refer to as the Mahdi????

    Could the Jesus/ Issa of Islam turn out to the final Cyrus type political leader explained in Isaiah chapter 45? Or could the Jesus of Islam turn out to be the King David type person who is raised up for the Jewish people by G-d?

    Could Jews, Muslims and Christians be talking about the same people but are we so sidetracked by specific words, phrases and technical jargon that we fail to recognize that we may be discussing the same individuals?


    http://www.politicalforum.com/relig...-jesus-understood-islamic-mystic-scholar.html

    The Second Coming of Jesus as understood by an Islamic Mystic and scholar!

    In my opinion the following article has the potential to save millions of lives....frankly billions if we would combine many of the implications of this with a plan to produce food in many desert nations.

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/fazlu...76136002396496

    SECOND COMING OF JESUS
    by Fazlul Islam (Notes) on Wednesday, August 31, 2011 at 3:47am

     

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