FACT: Atheists are Lost

I read the book many times, and have never seen any "magic" involved. I have seen what could be described as the Hand of God at work,,,, but not "magic" per se. Perhaps you are wanting to be the cynic and use the term "magic" as opposed to "God". Perhaps your use of the term 'magic' is due to magic being defined in relevant part as something that is 'supernatural'. Well, even in that case, God is not supernatural... God is all around us (Omnipresent - which means everywhere- which implies that God is even in that space between electrons orbiting the nucleus of an atom). In which case, your use of the term 'supernatural' is misplaced.

 

creating a man from dirt would be magic... duh

I agree, God = the universal connectedness of everything.... there is no old man in the sky, like in the bible, that is myth

....

 

That would all depend on whether or not you are working in the kitchen where the steak is actually being cooked.

 

I did some amateur modeling one time (just to test my hands at that art) and was able to create a man out of modeling clay (I suppose that could be considered as dirt), and though it was easily recognized as the work of an amateur, it was expressive of my mental image of a man and was the best that my hands could put together. No magic was involved.

 

wow, ok, so that was the kinda man God created in the bible, I thought it meant a real man, my mistake

to make the clay man a real man you would of needed to use Magic

.

 

No, it was the kinda man I made. And you have accomplished this feat and are therefore able to ascertain what is required to make a living man out of clay(dirt)? What form of 'magic' is used to do such a thing? Can you at least provide the name of that type of magic? I could make a fortune if I were able to accomplish such a thing.

 

Well it would take this kind of magic:

Seems somebody else beat you to that fortune.

 

That is not "magic". That is illusions. That stuff shows nothing that could be considered "supernatural". Even the 'conjurations',,, those are subjective and man-made. You obviously have no idea of what 'magic' is.

 

No, that is exactly magic.
It is NONSENSE, suitable for children's stories and imaginations.

OTOH, I do happen to agree with Clarke's third law.

 

Subjective opinion (stated as fact), followed by a personal attack? Lets raise the bar here folks!

 

You don't need to know what kind of gun someone used to know they have been shot. Apply same logic to you response.

 

the kinda magic required to turn dirt into a man is the kinda magical powers needed, a magical power the bible says God has

 

That is interesting however it is irrelevant to the discussion 'at hand'.

 

You are most definitely correct. I did not get into Hogwarts as my incantations were weak. OTOH, my midiclorians are off the charts so I got accepted into the Jedi academy, but Anikin got there before I did.

magic is nonsense. it is the stuff of superstition and flim flammery. Hmmmmm, much like a lot of religions.

 

The only problem I see is that some people just accept what they were taught as kids and never question their beliefs.

 

I don't know many believers that never question their beliefs. Most tend to begin questioning everything in their teenage years, along with everything else.

 

Come on, Jonsa, are you gonna keep bringing up Anakin all the time? That stuff happened a long time ago...

 

Rather than put labels on things and then try and define what society ( or a person in general) means when using that label perhaps it is better to just state two opposing perspectives.

On the one hand you have a group that claims that they know for sure something about God. In general this group consists of (Christians, Muslims, or believers of the tenets of most other religions who claim de-facto that God exists.) and those that claim there is no God (Atheists that claim God does not exist).

It is important to note that not all Christians state de-facto that God exists and not all Atheists that God does not.

What you really have here is those that claim de-facto "God exists" and those that claim de-facto that "God does not exit"

Which boils down to Group 1 (those that make de-facto claims about God) and Group 2 (those that do not)

As you can see straight away the only "label" that fits into either group definitively are the agnostics. An agnostic, by definition, puts one into Group 2 (those that claim they do not know).

Someone claiming they are Christian or Atheist might fit into either Group 1 or Group 2.

The only reasonable answer to the question, "Do you know for sure that God exists" is "No"

The only reasonable answer to the question, "Do you know for sure that God does not exist" is "No"

The folks that can be defined by their label to have given the correct answer to either question are those that define themselves as Agnostic.

 

At the end of the day people need to agree on meanings for the words they use. That is the only path to effective communication.

 

Sure. The whole point of my post was to make a point in the context of the thread without using ambiguous words with everything was clearly defined.

Did you agree with my point ?

 

What is the correct answer? Who made the determination as to whether or not the answer is 'correct'?

 

If your point is that agnostics are the most reasonable, I would say I somewhat agree. Minus my evidence for God I would most likely be agnostic. I think atheists are the least reasonable given the amount of knowledge, or lack thereof, humans currently possess. Even the most primitive scientist will quickly come to the conclusion that there is no way to prove God doesn't exist. Therefore, given what we don't know, that is the only belief that we know we can't prove.

 

That how english works? How do you say aluminum in Britain? What does "bonnet" mean in Britain (those are just a couple of terms that have different meanings). The fact is that you are assigning a label before knowing anything about the person. That is called prejudging. Languages change and evolve over time and so do definitions. Do you think the word "gay" meant homosexual 70 years ago?

 

You can not disprove a negative (prove that a moon around some planet in the Orion constellation is not made of green cheese). I do not think most Atheists claim categorically that God does not exist. For them it is just a belief.

On the other hand there are "too numerous to count" numbers of fundamentalist Christians who claim categorically that not only does God exist, God made the Earth 6000 years ago, and flooded the entire earth roughly 4000 years ago.

There is little evidence for any God. What is inanely ridiculous are those who claim that not only do they know that God exists but that they actually know specific characteristics of this God.

I myself believe there is a God or a number of them but do not go as far as thinking that I have any valid proof. I even met God once during a near death experience. This is not valid proof even to me as the mind can dream some pretty amazing dreams.

Scientifically I can argue for God. First however we need to define what a God would be.

God = an entity that can control matter/energy outside its own body by use of its will in my definition.

You see even humans have the ability to control matter and energy within their body to some degree. (Proof - look down at your finger, now will it to move)

Imagine if you could extend that power ... (a thought generating a physical reality) outside your own body.

The only think you know for certain is that you exist. At some point matter, energy, or some combination of the two got together in some configuration such that it gained knowledge of its own existence. ... Proof ( You ... a form of matter and energy that knows it exists)

Is a stone or a tree self aware ? not sure but I know I am . My Dog ? almost certainly.

Is it possible for some form of matter an energy to come together in a configuration other than a human where it has knowledge of its own existence ? Obviously. In fact it is a probabilistic certainty given the vastness of the universe.

In an infinite amount of time "all probabilities" happen never- mind those that are probabilistic certainties.

So it is a certainty that various forms of matter and energy gained knowledge of their own existence and developed a will.

Were these entities or entity able to evolve to use that will to manipulate matter and energy outside their own bodies ? Perhaps ... if they did not kill themselves off in short order they could have had millions of years to learn.

How about the matter itself .. the idea of an interconnected cosmic mind. Matter and energy interchange between each other at the sub-atomic level E=MC2.

Is it possible that the universe itself knows of its own existence ? If we exist, being made of the same stuff, then this too seems almost a certainty.

 

If someone says they are an atheist, then I think they are an atheist. That's not prejudging, that's acknowledging the information they provided.

If they aren't an atheist, then they just confused the process.

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In order for this to relevant you must assume that man can comprehend what God is, I'm not certain we are capable.