Why would I worship and love a "God" who ordered infanticide?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Gorn Captain, Jun 15, 2015.

  1. Gorn Captain

    Gorn Captain Banned

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    ((time to resurrect this one again....pun intended. :) ))

    "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants...---1 Samuel 15:3

    Let's start with the basic rationalizations likely to pop up-

    1. God "became a nice guy" after Jesus was born. (so much for God being "exactly the same for all eternity")

    2. The Amalekite babies were destined to become "evil" (so much for Free Will)

    3. The Israelities just made up that "God told us to do it" to justify their actions and genocide. (the actual answer, but ends the idea of the Bible "speaking for God).


    Have I missed any?
     
  2. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    "First, your return to shore was not part of our negotiations nor our agreement, so I must do nothing.
    And secondly, you must be a pirate for the Pirate's Code to apply, and your not.
    And thirdly, the Code is more what you'd call guidelines
    than actual rules ..."
    - Captain Barbossa


    I find this applies equally as well to all religions.
     
  3. Gorn Captain

    Gorn Captain Banned

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    This one IS a poser for the Believer in the Bible.

    Trying to reconcile the "loving, merciful God" of the NT....with the psychotic homicidal...even infanticidal maniac of the Old Testament.
     
  4. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    As I just got done explaining to you, that description of God is not consistent with the description of God that Jesus peovides(as u already pointed out). Now either God changes (as u also pointed out) or God was misrepresented in the OT and didn't command people to kill babies.

    Im a christian so I follow Jesus. As such it seems clear to me that the portrayal in the OT of God was often riddled with human error.
     
  5. Gorn Captain

    Gorn Captain Banned

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    So why can the Hebrew Chroniclers make errors....but the Apostles can't?
     
  6. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    I'm not going to try to attempt to explain whether it's right or wrong, but the British and Americans intentionally bombed innocent civilians in the second World War. War can often get very messy, and all-out war usually entails dirty tactics.
     
  7. Gorn Captain

    Gorn Captain Banned

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    Fascinating that a vehement "pro-lifer"....who believes a human ovum one second after fertilization is a "child"....

    offers up apologia for the DELIBERATE ORDERING of the slaughter of children and babies.


    Makes one rather dubious of your claim to "loving children"...unless they are in utero.


    BTW, how many pregnant women do you figure the Israelites killed on God's orders???
     
  8. UnknownGause

    UnknownGause Member

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    Yes but those wars were not supposedly commanded by deity, so yes war may entail dirty tactics, but the inconsistency is how does a loving moral god command such immoral acts to be done?
     
  9. Gorn Captain

    Gorn Captain Banned

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    A key part apologists try to overlook (or hope WE overlook) in their argument...

    unless the Hebrew Chroniclers were lying (as Immortal postulates).....

    it is GOD who is DELIBERATELY ORDERING the genocide of the Amalekites and infanticide of their children.

    Leaving only two options-

    1. The Chroniclers were lying about God's commanding them to commit mass slaughter (likely to appear "righteous").

    2. God, the "loving and merciful"....was a genocidal madman. But "with good reason"....according to the apologists.


    There is no 3rd option.
     
  10. UnknownGause

    UnknownGause Member

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    They could've have been two different gods. There were certain Gnostic groups in the 2nd-3rd century who repudiated the OT god and found him to be inconsistent with the NT god that Jesus preached.

    They didn't see the OT god as non-existent, but rather a tyrannical upstart who had usurped the true (unknownable, incomprehensible) god as the great 'I am'. They may well have been the first to realise that the two testaments are incompatible.
     
  11. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    I suppose I was suggesting they might not be immoral in certain situations.
    Sometimes the actions of some require others to kill innocent people. For example, when police try to deal with a hostage situation, it is not uncommon for some hostages to get killed by bullets fired by the police. There was one situation in Russia where the police pumped knockout gas into the building and the gas ended up leading to the death of many of the hostages. They knew there were risks to using the gas, but that was the best option to deal with the situation they could think of.
     
  12. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    That's why we have 4 different accounts of the gospel. We have four different accounts, written by four different people at four different times who, while they had errors in time, place and order of events, were 100% consistent in regards to doctrines, teachings and examples set forth by Jesus Christ and were without contradiction.
     
  13. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The better question is, how can anyone love something they do not know, and have never seen, but just read about it in a book? These people who claim to love jesus have no clue what love is, and how it works. If god does exist, I do not think he will think very highly of these people. For he will wonder as well, how can they love him, when he never interacted with them at all, and certainly never had supper with them.

    This is no different than if I were to say that I love a fruit that grows in south America, but not only have I never seen one, but I have never tasted it either. And at least with the fruit, it can be proved to exist, whereas this thing called god is just a fabrication of a fearful mind.

    You know why people say they love god? Because of a threat they read about in the book, that says if you do not love him, wheedle him, he will torture you for all eternity in the hottest fire ever, yet you cannot die to get out of it. Then they have the nerve to say they made a free choice in loving him. That I like someone holding a gun to your head, and telling you if you do not say a particular word, they will blow your brains out. Theoretically it might look like a free choice, but in actuality, is it really free? Hardly.
     
  14. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    which means ALL holy books are probably riddled with human error. the only difference between every holy book ever written and your jesus book is YOU. ie, you prefer that book, so indulge the vanity of calling it unsullied by human error. others prefer other books, so say the same about them. see how that works?

    - - - Updated - - -

    certainly, when humans are involved. we talking here about a universe creating god - whom people claim is all about love, and worthy of their worship. they keep telling us he is so far above human weakness and failing that we can't remotely comprehend or judge him (all the while judging him themselves - as good). so yeah.
     
  15. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    yes, this!

    I look forward to seeing if any Christians take this on. I would love to hear how they process it to themselves, too, but I suspect we won't be privy to that information :p

    - - - Updated - - -

    why are you using human examples? we're talking about your all-loving, all-powerful, far-above-human-weakness, supergod.
     
  16. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I fear you may have fallen into the trap of thinking that vague consistency = magic. Humans are inspired by, and flat out copy, other humans ... all the time. In order for this vague consistency to be accepted as magic, you would have to prove that the books were written virtually simultaneously, in different parts of the world, by people with zero knowledge of the myths and stories. good luck.
     
  17. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    While your characterization of "vague consistency" is cute... it's not accurate. While the books may have contradictions in regards to time, place and order of events... those books are written without contradiction in regards to Jesus doctrine. Without copying one another that would be a statistical impossibility.
     
  18. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Vague or not - you haven't any way of proving they weren't plagiarisms. Therefore using their similarities as evidence is ridiculous. It won't convince anyone who's not already convinced - or desperately wants to be convinced. After all, you reject such proofs for other gods.
     
  19. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    Basic logic tells you that's incorrect...and the reason being (the short answer at least) is because you can't have it both ways.

    The gospels, as I've pointed out and most here have agreed with, has contradictions and inconsistencies in regards to time, places and events. And yet those same gospels are without contradiction in regards to the doctrines, teaching and examples set forth by Jesus Christ.

    Now, you claim they copied one another. If the people who were writing those gospels were, as you are implying, attempting to deceive everyone by making them believe these events actually took place and these were actually teachings from Jesus Christ... then why are there contradictions in time, place and order of events? Because if they copied the teachings, and did so without contradiction, then why would they not do the same thing with the rest of the gospel?

    If they were intending to deceive and they were intelligent enough to obtain and copy previous gospels, then why not ensure that there were no contradictions anywhere in the gospels?

    Basic logic tells you that they would have copied the entire thing if they were copying the teachings as well. The only logical conclusion you can come to is that they didn't copy one another and that they were telling the truth.
     
  20. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    Ha!

    My question is, how can anyone hate something they do not know, and have never seen, but just read about in a book?
     
  21. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    They did copy one another. The Gospels were written by writers familiar with the preceding Gospels over the span of several decades. They weren't written in vacuums.
     
  22. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    You are operating with the completely false belief that these books were written down first and the writers has physical copies to copy from. It was an oral tradition until well into the 2nd century.
     
  23. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    Then you still have the same problem. How were those oral traditions without contradiction in regards to Jesus' doctrine and yet not in regards to the rest of the information?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Make your mind up. Were they copying off of written records or oral tradition?
     
  24. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    That's not true. The Creed was written down months after Jesus died. Historians know this because both Josephus and Paul reference the Creed and quote it themselves.
     
  25. Channe

    Channe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Prepare for excuse after excuse from the religious right. They will deflect, they will deny, they will apologize for, and they will justify the brutally violent, sociopathic, bigoted, sexist, and insane deity of the Bible.

    The FACT is, if you any human dictated the things that God/Jesus does in the Old Testament, humans would view that person as an evil maniac.
     

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