Abu Mazen: Pre-67 Land Also "Occupied"

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by stuntman, Oct 20, 2015.

  1. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    I am still laughing about the Zionist lie that Mein Kampf is a best seller in the Arab world. What lengths will they go to in order to justify what they have done.. They came as refugees from Europe and Russia and proceeded to abuse and demonize the natives trying to force them out. Nazism has much in common with Nazism.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Read the Turkish census .. the Jews were still a minority in Jerusalem in 1880 that's why the Muslim Quarter was the largest area in the city.

    Read the travel journals of Ibn Battuta, the Rabbi of Tudela and the Bordeax Pilgrim.
     
  2. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    According to the Prussian consul, the population in 1845 was 16,410, with 7,120 Jews, 5,000 Muslims, 3,390 Christians, 800 Turkish soldiers and 100 Europeans

    by 1896, Jews were the majority

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerusalem#Jews_as_absolute_or_relative_majority
     
  3. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    "Zionist lie"? Not quite:
    Source'1: http://rense.com/general24/hitlersmeinkampf.htm
    Source'2: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1388161/Mein-Kampf-for-sale-in-Arabic.html
    Source'3: http://www.timesofisrael.com/mein-kamf-ebook-surging-in-popularity/
    Source'4: http://pamelageller.com/2014/01/hitlers-mein-kampf-hits-bestseller-list-la-times-makes-excuses.html/
     
  4. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nazism has much in common with Nazism? lol!!!

    yes, Mein Kampf is a best-seller in the Muslim world.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8382132.stm

    http://www.crethiplethi.com/mein-kampf-best-seller-in-muslim-bangladesh/english/2009/

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4361733.stm
     
  5. Korozif

    Korozif Banned

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    Why did the brits give you the land that belong to north american native nations for 12,000 years?
    When are you going back to Europe?
     
  6. xavierphoenix

    xavierphoenix New Member

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    Does not contradict that this PA cleric referred "Palestine" as Waqf land"
    That was during 2000 when Arafat ruled the PA.

    "Does not contradict the fact that he never said in the video that he "killed Oslo. Moreover, Bibi stated in the video that he will act according to them, hence, your claim that "he wasnt sincere about following Oslo" is not true according to the video that Ronstar provided."
    I'm not disputing that Bibi never said he killed Oslo. My contention is that Bibi had no intention of following Oslo Accords or making serious comprises on West Bank with him stating
    [Narrator] The Oslo accords stated at the time that Israel would gradually hand over territories to the Palestinians in three different stages, unless the territories in question had settlements or military sites. This is where Netanyahu found a loophole.
    [Natanyahu] No one said what defined military sites. Defined military sites, I said, were security zones. As far as I’m concerned, the Jordan Valley is a defined military site.
    [Woman] Right [laughs]. The Beit She’an settlements. The Beit She’an Valley.
    [Natanyahu] How can you tell. How can you tell? But then the question came up of just who would define what defined military sites were. I received a letter – to me and to Arafat, at the same time … which said that Israel, and only Israel, would be the one to define what those are, the location of those military sites and their size. Now, they did not want to give me that letter, so I did not give the Hebron agreement. I stopped the government meeting, I said: “I’m not signing.” Only when the letter came, in the course of the meeting, to me and to Arafat, only then did I sign the Hebron agreement, or rather, ratify it. It had already been signed. Why does this matter? Because at that moment I actually stopped the Oslo accord."
    You keep presenting Hebron agreement as a serious agreement when it's worthless since it left Jewish version of Neo-Nazi settlers there, you also represent Wye accord as compromise when only 2%(out of promised 13%) of transferring areas from area C to area B or A.

    "As I already showed you from the link I provided and which talked in parts of it about the meeting of 1998:"
    Again this still applies
    "President Clinton declared to the Palestinian National Council in Gaza (14 December 199
    “I thank you for your rejection—fully, finally and forever—of the passages in the Palestinian Charter calling for the destruction of Israel. For they were the ideological underpinnings of a struggle renounced at Oslo. By revoking them once and for all, you have sent, I say again, a powerful message not to the government, but to the people of Israel. You will touch people on the street there. You will reach their hearts there.
    Like President Clinton, Israel and the Likud party now formally agreed that the objectionable clauses of the charter had been abrogated – in official statements and statements by then Prime Minister Netanyahu, Foreign Minister Sharon, Defense Minister Mordechai and Trade and Industry Minister Sharansky. The official Israeli objections to the Charter disappeared thereafter from lists of Palestinian violations of agreements and the international legal controversy ended. "
    PLO charter on official Israel's foreign ministry even says "The Palestinian National Charter is hereby amended by canceling the articles that are contrary to the letters exchanged between the P.L.O. and the Government of Israel 9-10 September 1993." Article 33 of charter also notes when the charter is amended by saying "This Charter shall not be amended save by [vote of] a majority of two-thirds of the total membership of the National Congress of the Palestine Liberation Organization [taken] at a special session convened for that purpose." which the PLO did in 1996 and 1998. Again if PLO wasn't amended, Bibi, Likud and others would know this and demand for it be changed.

    "We are living in 2015, and not in 2007 nor in 2004. Please stay focus on the year that we are living at.
    Let us not forget as well that the book of Mein Kampf, where Hitler detailed about the Nazi agenda, is a best-seller in the Arab countries and not in Kiryat Arba."

    I didn't say we were living in those years. I was describing Dov Lior who is an important leader and teacher for Yitzhar community since he's chief rabbi for their Yeshiva. As mentioned before Dov Lior endorsed King's Torah which has sold 1,000 copies(most of them probably in extremist settlements like Kiryat Arba and Yitzhar) nationwide and 1,000 more printed. That doesn't seem to faze you that you have communities like Kiryat Arba led by people that endorsed it or in case of Yitzhar helped write it. King's Torah says stuff like The prohibition 'Thou Shalt Not Murder' applies only "to a Jew who kills a Jew," Non-Jews are "uncompassionate by nature" and attacks on them "curb their evil inclination," while babies and children of Israel's enemies may be killed since "it is clear that they will grow to harm us."
    http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2.209/the-king-s-torah-a-rabbinic-text-or-a-call-to-terror-1.261930
    Nothing what you said doesn't change the facts I mentioned of Kiryat Arba and it's leaders noted below

    "This is a community that widely admires Meir Kahane who called for all Arabs including Israeli citizens to be expelled from Israel and also admires Baruch Goldstein who massacred 29 Arabs in Hebron. Chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba's yeshiva Dov Lior in 2007 stated "We must cleanse the country of Arabs and resettle them in the countries where they came from." In an a comparison that hurts memory of holocaust Dov Lior called Baruch Goldstein holier than victims of the holocaust(despite mentioning this multiple times that has never galled you). In 2008 Lior in a rabbinical ruling said it was forbidden by Jews to employ Arabs or rent homes from them. Lior was part of ceremony supporting a settler(with other settler identity unknown) convicted of tying up an Arab youth beating him up, bound him, fired their guns close to him, stripped him naked, and left him at side of the road. Some of the settlers constantly attack Arabs such as nine of their homes firebombed in the past 3 years, their olive trees often destroyed(which for many Arabs is their livelihood), settlers often injuring or even killing Arabs(for example 24 killed due to shooting and vehicular attacks between 2004-2011). In a report called "When settlers attack" Kiryat Arba is listed as the most dangerous settlement. "
    http://imeu.org/article/state-sanctioned-incitement-israels-extremist-rabbis
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/31/israel-talk-is-cheap-price-tag-violence
    "Lastly here is excerpt from J.J. Goldberg's 2004 attack called Among the settlers and notes what happens when he visits Kiryat Arba
    "In a late winter’s day, a slight, blue-eyed boy rode a bicycle down an empty street in the militant Jewish ghetto of Hebron, in the West Bank. Clipped to the boy’s hair was a green kipa, crocheted and oversized in the style of the settlers. A damp wind was blowing, and a bank of clouds hovered over the city, but the boy was jacketless. Scattered piles of rubble and garbage, flecked with broken glass, lined the road.
    The buildings along what the Jews call King David Street and the Arabs call Martyrdom Street are tightly packed and decaying. The Jews live mainly on the east side of the street, and the Arabs live to the west. When I visited, much of the area was under curfew. The Jewish zone, where some Arabs live, is “sterile,” a soldier told me: only Arabs who hold the proper pass are allowed to enter. The soldier, a paratrooper in the Israeli Army’s Fighting Pioneer Youth Brigade, was guarding Hadassah House, a three-story building where several families of settlers live. A brigade of soldiers, coils of razor wire, and hundreds of concrete barriers stand between Hebron’s fewer than eight hundred Jewish settlers and its hundred and fifty thousand Arab residents.
    Across from Hadassah House is a school for Arab girls, called Córdoba, after the once-Muslim Spanish city. On one of its doors someone had drawn a blue Star of David. On another door a yellowing bumper sticker read, “Dr. Goldstein Cures the Ills of Israel.” The reference is to Baruch Goldstein, a physician from Brooklyn, who, in 1994, killed twenty-nine Muslims when they were praying in the Tomb of the Patriarchs, just down the road. Across the closed door of a Palestinian shop someone had written, in English, “Arabs Are Sand (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)s.”
    Jewish invective is answered by Muslim insults; over another door was a hand-painted verse from the Koran, attesting to the undying perfidy of the Jews. Nearby, peeling off a wall, was a poster dedicated to a ten-month-old Jewish girl named Shalhevet Pass, who was shot through the head three years ago by a Palestinian sniper. “May God Avenge Her Blood,” it read. Pass’s father is in jail in Israel; last July, the police found eight bricks of explosives in the trunk of his car.
    A group of yeshiva students appeared, walking in the direction of the Tomb of the Patriarchs, a two-thousand-year-old stone palace. It sits atop the cave in which, tradition holds, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their wives are buried. It is because of the tomb that Hebron is considered a holy city. The yeshiva boys wore flannel shirts and jeans. They had the wispy beards of young men who have never shaved.
    Two Arab girls, their heads covered by scarves, books clutched to their chests, left the Córdoba School, and were walking toward the yeshiva boys.
    “(*)(*)(*)(*)s!” one of the boys yelled, in Arabic.
    “Do you let your brothers (*)(*)(*)(*) you?” another one yelled. I stopped one of the students and asked why he was cursing the girls. He was red-faced, and his black hair was covered with a blue knit skullcap.
    “What are you, a goy?” he asked.
    The girls fled down the street, and the boys disappeared. I asked the soldier guarding Hadassah House why he hadn’t intervened. “They didn’t hurt them,” he said.
    The boy on the bicycle circled toward me and asked what I was doing there. I told him that I was waiting for a woman named Anat Cohen. He said that she was his mother, and that she had just gone to the market. Then he pedalled away, toward barricades at the end of the street.
    Cohen pulled up a few minutes later, in a station wagon, its windshield cracked from stone-throwing attacks. She is one of the leaders of the Hebron Jews. A short woman in her early forties, she had a taut, windburned face and muscular arms, and her fingernails were chewed and dirty. As we walked through her front door, into a stone-walled living room, I asked her how she could let her son play amid the barbed wire and soldiers and barricades, and with snipers in the hills above.
    “Hebron is ours,” she said. “Why shouldn’t he play?”
    “Because he could get killed,” I said.
    “There’s a bullet out there for each one of us,” she said. “But you can always die. At least his death here would sanctify God’s name.”
    Cohen and other settlers say that they are obliged to fulfill God’s command that Jews settle the land of Israel. But there are safer places to live than King David Street in Hebron. I asked Cohen how she reconciled her decision to settle here with an even greater imperative of Judaism, the saving of lives—in this case, those of her children.
    She glared at me. “Hellenizers”—secular Jews—“will never understand,” she said with contempt.
    Anat Cohen is known, even among Hebron’s Jews, who are some of the least placatory of all the settlers, for her ferocity. According to Army commanders, she has cursed and insulted soldiers, and assaulted Arabs. The first time we met, she told me that she was a soldier of God.
    Cohen has about ten children—like certain religious Jews, she refused to specify the number, in order to confuse the evil eye. The Cohen house is cramped and dark, and there are few toys. On one wall hangs a framed photograph of Meir Kahane, the zealot rabbi from Brooklyn, who advocated the expulsion of all Arabs from Israel. Behind a stone pillar hangs a photograph of Baruch Goldstein, with the inscription “The Saint Dr. Goldstein.” A candle burned in a makeshift shrine, in memory of Cohen’s brother, Gilad Zar. He was the security chief of the settlements in Samaria, the territory of the northern West Bank. He was killed three years ago by terrorists.
    Cohen’s one-year-old son, who is named after her late brother, burst into the room, spilling Cheerios. Cohen swept him off the floor, and said, “You don’t live just to keep living. That’s not the point of life.”
    In an earlier conversation, we had talked about Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son Isaac, at God’s command; only God’s intervention saved Isaac. Cohen admired Abraham’s dedication, unabashedly. She was, I came to see, suffering from something that could be called a Moriah complex. Mt. Moriah, in Jerusalem, is the traditional site of the binding of Isaac, and symbolizes a Jew’s absolute devotion to even the most inexplicable and cruel demands of God. The First and Second Jewish Temples rose on Mt. Moriah. So, later, did the Dome of the Rock, built on the site from which, Muslims believe, Muhammad ascended to Heaven. (In Cohen’s house, there is an image of the Temple Mount in which the Dome of the Rock has been replaced by a rendering of an imagined Third Temple, which, tradition holds, will rise when the Messiah comes.) The Moriah complex is characterized by a desire to match Abraham’s devotion to God, even at the price of a child’s life.
    Cohen brought up the story, from the Second Book of the Maccabees, of a God-loving mother of seven boys, partisans in the Jewish revolt against Hellenistic rule twenty-two hundred years ago. The boys were called before King Antiochus, who ordered them to eat swine, as a loyalty test. The sons refused.
    “Do you know what the Greeks did to these boys?” Cohen asked. “They ripped out their tongues and boiled them alive.”
    Just before the last son was martyred, the mother gave him a message to deliver in Heaven: “Go and say to your father Abraham, ‘Thou didst bind one son to the altar, but I have bound seven altars.’ ”
    After the seventh son was killed, the mother threw herself off a roof. The Talmud says that, on her death, a voice was heard from Heaven, singing, “A happy mother of children.”
    One afternoon, I went to the Tomb of the Patriarchs. The detachment of Border Police that day was commanded by an Ethiopian immigrant who was wearing a knit kipa. He seemed tense; Rabbi Levinger, he said, was inside. Moshe Levinger, who is in his sixties, is Hebron’s first Jewish settler, a fierce man, and a source of vexation for the Army and the police.
    A flight of broad stone steps leads to the main hall of the tomb. The Muslim rulers of Hebron once banned Jews from climbing higher than the seventh step. Levinger was the first modern-day Jewish settler in Hebron, but there were Jews in Hebron before Islam was founded. In 1929, a pogrom erased the Jewish presence, when sixty-seven Jews were murdered by their Arab neighbors. The British, then in charge of Palestine, removed the Jewish survivors from Hebron, for their own safety. I entered the main prayer hall. Benches that had been placed in rows in front of an Ark were mostly empty. Elderly men prayed alone. Underneath the stone floor, in the double-chambered Cave of the Machpelah, the bones of the Jewish patriarchs and matriarchs are said to rest. According to Genesis, Abraham bought the cave as a burial place for his wife, Sarah. It was his first, fateful purchase of land in Canaan.
    Rabbi Levinger approached. For many years, he has been the face of the settlement movement, which is no favor; his head is small, but his eyes are bulbous and his teeth outsized. His voice is deep, and his beard seems constructed of iron shavings. I said hello. He grunted a reply.
    I told him that the police seemed uneasy about his presence in the tomb, and I asked whether they were worried that he would lash out at the Palestinians.
    “The Arabs know to behave like good boys around us,” he said.
    Levinger first came to Hebron in 1968, after Israel seized the West Bank in the Six-Day War. He rented rooms in an Arab hotel, in order to hold a Passover Seder. Then he refused to leave. He struck a deal with the Israeli government, and moved his family and his followers to a hill just northeast of Hebron, where, with the state’s coöperation, they built the settlement called Kiryat Arba. There are now seven thousand settlers there. In 1979, his wife, Miriam, led a group of settler women in an unruly takeover of the Hadassah House building. The squatters stayed, and a community grew up around them.
    In 1988, Levinger killed a Palestinian shoe-store owner in Hebron. Levinger told the police that he was defending himself from a group of stone throwers. He served thirteen weeks in an Israeli jail for the killing. He told me once, “I’m not happy when any living creature dies—an Arab, a fly, a donkey.”
    In the Israel he envisaged, Levinger said, Arabs would be allowed to stay only so long as they “behave themselves. Foreign residents”—Levinger’s designation for Arabs—“will be allowed to stay in Israel if they follow our laws and don’t demand privileges.” He added that they might vote “for mayors and such” but not for Prime Minister. He did not believe that the Arabs would acquiesce to such an arrangement, and that is why he advocated “transfer”—a euphemism for mass expulsion. “Whoever hurts Jews will be expelled,” he said."
    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/05/31/among-the-settlers

    The fact is no Western democratic countries have communities that act like this and is supported and protected by their governments.
     
  7. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    Still deos not contradict that the PA cleric stated that "Palestine" as Waqf land.

    In Hamas Charter says so at the begining of Article Eleven as well: (Hamas and Fatah until now werent seperated from the joint government)
    In the Fatah Charter it states that whole of "Palsetine" as it was during the British Mandate is their goal:
    And that it's liberation is sacred:
    Source'1: http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html
    Source'2: http://www.iris.org.il/plochart.htm

    Bibi stated in the video that he will act according to them, as you as well showed in your previous comment, hence, your claim that "he wasnt sincere about following Oslo" is not true according to the video that Ronstar provided.

    As I already showed you in one of my earlier comments:
    Fatah central committee member ‘Azzam Al-Ahmad declared in 2009 that the Fatah Charter has never been ammanded:
    The "Palestinian" National Council did meet in Gaza, 1996 and did voted to amend the Charter, but it was never happened. There was only a voting on the subject, but never actions to amend.
    According to the Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Information in a report from 1999 mentioned that the Fatah Charter has yet to be amended:
    This kind of statment was later on in 2009 was anounced by Azzam Al-Ahmad that the Fatah Charter remains as it was.

    Source: http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/...25785500565876

    And you qouted what he siad in 2007, and it has nothing ot do with out current reality because we are living in 2015 and not in 2007.

    All of what you are talking here either said in 2007 or in 2004, but today theyear iss 2015 and in several months will be 2016- we are not living in 2007 nor in 2004.

    It is like I will take qouted and actions that were made in 1950's against the black population in your country, the US, and will say that the US in 2015 is still an still acting as it did in 1950's against the black population. Are you will ok with that? no, right?

    BTW- in the US there are still who hurt black people and use the "N" word and shot to death in the streets with no reason, but still you cant say that the US is as it was in 1950's, right? same with Israel. In Israel there are small group of people that say and do things against Arabs, but at the same time those exact people are also can call the current government in Israel a "left-wing government".
     
  8. xavierphoenix

    xavierphoenix New Member

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    "Still deos not contradict that the PA cleric stated that "Palestine" as Waqf land.
    In Hamas Charter says so at the begining of Article Eleven as well: (Hamas and Fatah until now werent seperated from the joint government)"
    I never said he didn't say that. That isn't proof that Abbas believes the same, beside not heading PA at that time, has agreed to territorial concessions in the past including Israel annexing all of the settlement blocs except for Ariel(which sits on fertile land reserves, accepting border outline drawn up by the Americans last year which lets 80% of settlers stay, etc.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/13/magazine/13Israel-t.html?_r=0
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4515821,00.html

    "In the Fatah Charter it states that whole of "Palsetine" as it was during the British Mandate is their goal:
    And that it's liberation is sacred:"
    As already mentioned articles that conflict with recognizing Israel have been cancelled. Again this is the view of Israeli government(with PLO charter on official Israeli foreign ministry website stating this) and right wingers like your pm and former minister Natan Sharansky. If the PLO didn't amend it, Bibi would know this and Bibi along with others like Avigdor Lieberman would be demanding for PLO charter to be amended.

    "Bibi stated in the video that he will act according to them, as you as well showed in your previous comment, hence, your claim that "he wasnt sincere about following Oslo" is not true according to the video that Ronstar provided."
    It's true. Again you didn't refute what video said which is that he intended to drag out Olso Accords as far as possible which as noted below is shown by Bibi's actions,.
    'm not disputing that Bibi never said he killed Oslo. My contention is that Bibi had no intention of following Oslo Accords or making serious comprises on West Bank with him stating
    [Narrator] The Oslo accords stated at the time that Israel would gradually hand over territories to the Palestinians in three different stages, unless the territories in question had settlements or military sites. This is where Netanyahu found a loophole.
    [Natanyahu] No one said what defined military sites. Defined military sites, I said, were security zones. As far as I’m concerned, the Jordan Valley is a defined military site.
    [Woman] Right [laughs]. The Beit She’an settlements. The Beit She’an Valley.
    [Natanyahu] How can you tell. How can you tell? But then the question came up of just who would define what defined military sites were. I received a letter – to me and to Arafat, at the same time … which said that Israel, and only Israel, would be the one to define what those are, the location of those military sites and their size. Now, they did not want to give me that letter, so I did not give the Hebron agreement. I stopped the government meeting, I said: “I’m not signing.” Only when the letter came, in the course of the meeting, to me and to Arafat, only then did I sign the Hebron agreement, or rather, ratify it. It had already been signed. Why does this matter? Because at that moment I actually stopped the Oslo accord."
    You keep presenting Hebron agreement as a serious agreement when it's worthless since it left Jewish version of Neo-Nazi settlers there, you also represent Wye accord as compromise when only 2%(out of promised 13%) of transferring areas from area C to area B or A."


    "And you qouted what he siad in 2007, and it has nothing ot do with out current reality because we are living in 2015 and not in 2007."
    I never said we were in 2007. I am describing Dov Lior which is chief rabbi for Kiryat Arba's yeshiva(also head of council of rabbis for Judea and Samaria which means leader who is Jewish version of Neo-Nazi has wider influence beyond Kiryat Arba). As long as Dov Lior is chief rabbi for Kiryat Arba's yeshiva what he has said still applies.

    "All of what you are talking here either said in 2007 or in 2004, but today theyear iss 2015 and in several months will be 2016- we are not living in 2007 nor in 2004.
    Again I never said it was 2007 or 2004. Again as mentioned above Dov Lior is still chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba's yeshiva and also head of council of rabbis for Judea and Samara. Other stuff mentioned still happens. For example settler attacks against Arabs is a recurring phenomenon which is not surprise when most people in Kiryat Arba(this is shown for example by Anat Cohen in the interview along with religious leader for Kiryat Arba believing the same along with bumper sticker found across Hadassah house saying “Dr. Goldstein Cures the Ills of Israel.”) admire Meir Kahane(who called for all Arabs to be expelled including Israel's Arab citizens) and Baruch Goldstine(who massacred 29 Arabs).

    "It is like I will take qouted and actions that were made in 1950's against the black population in your country, the US, and will say that the US in 2015 is still an still acting as it did in 1950's against the black population. Are you will ok with that? no, right?
    BTW- in the US there are still who hurt black people and use the "N" word and shot to death in the streets with no reason, but still you cant say that the US is as it was in 1950's, right? same with Israel. In Israel there are small group of people that say and do things against Arabs, but at the same time those exact people are also can call the current government in Israel a "left-wing government".
    How is that the same? As mentioned above settlers are constantly Arabs(most recent incident a masked settler attacking an Arab's olive grove(which settlers constantly do) threatened one of the co-founders of Rabbis for Human Rights with a knife and price tag attack of Arab car torched with “Death to Arabs” and “administrative revenge” were found scrawled on pavement in Hebrew.) As mentioned the religious leader for Kiryat Arba is still Dov Lior, the community widely still admires Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Of course I'm aware that in U.S. there are still people who hurt black people and use the n word and sometimes shot people to death for no reason. However, it's not the same as the United States government doesn't support communities like that. They use to during days of Jim Crow and segregation. However again we aren;t in the 1950's. Examples of government support to Kiryat Arba(and other extremist settlements like that) beside providing infrastructure like running water, electricity, includes giving money to their Yeshivas as part of general policy funding Yeshivas, has political influence as part of the wider settlement movement making it difficult to dismantle these communities, and have your country's soldiers(most of them conscripts) protecting these extremists rather than actually protecting their country.
    http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/ascherman-attacked-wielding
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/possible-price-tag-attack-suspected-in-east-jerusalem/

    I asked Hbendor this question before, and he never answered it, will ask you this question and see if you will answer
    "if someone destroyed your house(leaving you homeless) if someone destroyed your livelihood(settlers often destroy olive grooves which are for many Arabs in West Bank their livelihood), note that settlers also threaten Arab lives with 24 Arabs in West Bank killed and 308 injured by settlers between 2004-2011 and 93(roughly for 2009-2013 each year ) attacks causing Arabs in West Bank to be injured, how would you react? how would you expect an average person to react to that?"
    http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/32678\
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/31/israel-talk-is-cheap-price-tag-violence
    this is the reality Arabs face(both sides share the reality of constantly facing injury or death from the other side), again if you were in these shoes how would you react? in other words if literally tomorrow you were homeless and lost your livelihood because of another power what would you do(in addition to fear of injury or death that is reality for both sides) how would you react or expect an average person to react if that happened?
     
  9. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    as long as right-wing Zionists continue to say that they have a legitimate claim over the West Bank, then Palestinians can say they have a legitimate claim over Israel.
     
  10. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    In the Fatah Charter it states that whole of "Palsetine" as it was during the British Mandate is their goal:
    And that it's liberation is sacred:
    Source: http://www.iris.org.il/plochart.htm

    As the Fatah Charter stated, then you can see here what is the goal for the Fatah.

    Not according to a UN document: As I already showed you numerous of times.
    Fatah central committee member ‘Azzam Al-Ahmad declared in 2009 that the Fatah Charter has never been ammanded:
    The "Palestinian" National Council did meet in Gaza, 1996 and did voted to amend the Charter, but it was never happened. There was only a voting on the subject, but never actions to amend.
    According to the Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Information in a report from 1999 mentioned that the Fatah Charter has yet to be amended:
    This kind of statment was later on in 2009 was anounced by Azzam Al-Ahmad that the Fatah Charter remains as it was.

    Source: http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/...25785500565876

    In my last comment I didnt stated that "Bibi didnt say he killed Oslo", so I cant understand why you are repeating yourself and write stuff that does not have anything to do with what I wrote.
    I wrote about you contention. And according to the video that Ronstar provided, Bibi stated that he will follow Oslo Accords.

    So according to you even when Israel giving land to the Arabs in the West Bank, is not good? Because Hebron and Wye agreements, their porpuse were to give land to the Arabs.
    Moreover, there was no mentioning about the Jewish community of Hebron that it needs to be evecuated.

    You described what he said in 2007, but of course we are not living in 2007. So please keep up with the year we are living in.

    Dov Lior is no longer the chief Rabbi of Kiryat Arabs. He stopped been the chief Rabbi last year (2014) and moved to Jerusalem. So as I already stated before, stop using information from 2007 and 2004, which is not relevnet for today reality, because alot has been changed since those years.

    As I already mentioned earlier, Dov Lior has stopped been the chief Rabbi of Kiryat Arabs last year.
    Source: http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Ra...-Kiryat-Arba-to-move-to-east-Jerusalem-379874


    Israel is also not supporting of the Jews that hurt Arabs, which most of them are the Hilltop Youth that considered the current government in Israel as "left-wing government".

    How I would react if a man would attack me? I will report him to the police, and would let the police do their job. Simple as that.
    I would never take the law to my hands and start attacking the man nor the community the come from.

    I would react as the law allow me too, and would never break the law nor take the law into my own hands. I would never start to attack the man nor the community the man come from because he hurts me.

    There is law that should be followed, and I as a citizen that respect the law would do anything in my power as the law allow me to.
     
  11. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    It would be like us returning Texas to Mexico `cause we whupped `em...

    ... and now some time has gone by and they want us to give it back...
    :omg:
    ... GTF real - you'll find no sympathy here.
     
  12. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Baloney!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Can you read or understand <SPOKEN HEBREW????>

    I teach 40 Foreign students, I suggest you join!
     
  13. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    many newspapers reported this.
     
  14. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Most of the reporters working for big companies i.e. BBC always report falsehood... why because the translation and interpretation is faulty.

    If you rely on News Papers please forward the Article that you defend and advocate for..
     
  15. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    considering many newspapers reported it, including Israeli ones, can you prove its false?
     
  16. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Did the Brits, French and Italians had the right to dispense of their Mandates as they saw fit... also the creation and give independence to a total of 23 countries?

    Yes they did not take the Kurd into consideration, Certainly Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq are not complaining it is when the Jews return to their motherland that there is a big argument about it... Get used to it for Israel is here to stay!
     
  17. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Palestine has been inhabited by Jews for thousands of years.

    Much longer than Arabs.
     
  18. xavierphoenix

    xavierphoenix New Member

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    We aren't in the 1800's anymore when human right violations was the norm. When we also after we took Texas from Mexico we gave people there citizenship. If Israel did that it wouldn't be a Jewish state anymore it would be a binational(historically binational states like Yugoslavia, Lebanon, Iraq haven't worked out well) state with 39% of its population Arab(overnight turning Joint List into largest party in Knesset) causing it to eventually turn into an Arab state. Without giving Arabs who reside in West Bank citizenship you have current situation where there is apartheid in West Bank due to Arabs residing under military law and Jews living nearby residing under civil law.
     
  19. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The West Bank should have become an independent Arab state, as Israel suggested in 1949.
     
  20. xavierphoenix

    xavierphoenix New Member

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    "Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.
    In the Fatah Charter it states that whole of "Palsetine" as it was during the British Mandate is their goal:"
    Not according to a UN document: As I already showed you numerous of times.
    Fatah central committee member &#8216;Azzam Al-Ahmad declared in 2009 that the Fatah Charter has never been ammanded:"
    The "Palestinian" National Council did meet in Gaza, 1996 and did voted to amend the Charter, but it was never happened. There was only a voting on the subject, but never actions to amend.
    According to the Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Information in a report from 1999 mentioned that the Fatah Charter has yet to be amended:"
    Not according to official Israeli foreign ministry website with it stating
    "On April 24, 1996, the Palestinian National Council, convening in Gaza, voted 504 to 54, with 14 abstentions, as follows:
    1. "The Palestinian National Charter is hereby amended by canceling the articles that are contrary to the letters exchanged between the P.L.O. and the Government of Israel 9-10 September 1993."
    Article 33 of PLO charter says for charter to be amended a season consisting of "[vote of] a majority of two-thirds of the total membership of the National Congress of the Palestine Liberation Organization [taken] at a special session convened for that purpose. " That happened in 1996 and 1998. If PLO didn't amend it why didn't Avigdor Liebermen for example who constantly criticizes the most right wing Israeli government ever for not being nationalist enough and has for in the past called for beheading of disloyal Israeli Arabs remove this from Israel's foreign ministry website and add it back to list of Palestinian violations of Oslo Accords?
    http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/the palestinian national charter.aspx

    "In my last comment I didnt stated that "Bibi didnt say he killed Oslo", so I cant understand why you are repeating yourself and write stuff that does not have anything to do with what I wrote.
    I wrote about you contention. And according to the video that Ronstar provided, Bibi stated that he will follow Oslo Accords.
    So according to you even when Israel giving land to the Arabs in the West Bank, is not good? Because Hebron and Wye agreements, their porpuse were to give land to the Arabs.
    Moreover, there was no mentioning about the Jewish community of Hebron that it needs to be evecuated. "
    In the video he's stating he will make it difficult to gradually hand over territory to Palestinians by defining most areas as security zones. Withdrawals are only good if it makes Israel a democratic and Jewish state which is only possible by relieving itself of responsibility of Arabs in Gaza and West Bank. I didn't say that there was agreement that Kiryat needed to be evaluated. I'm saying Hebron agreement was worthless since it left a community of Jewish versions of Neo Nazis in middle of an Arab city.

    "You described what he said in 2007, but of course we are not living in 2007. So please keep up with the year we are living in."
    "Dov Lior is no longer the chief Rabbi of Kiryat Arabs. He stopped been the chief Rabbi last year (2014) and moved to Jerusalem. So as I already stated before, stop using information from 2007 and 2004, which is not relevnet for today reality, because alot has been changed since those years."
    As I already mentioned earlier, Dov Lior has stopped been the chief Rabbi of Kiryat Arabs last year. "
    Again I never said it was 2007 or 2004. On Dov Lior, successor to Dov Lior is Eliezer Waldman who is also extremist. One of the founders of Kiryat Arba Waldman worked closely with Lior at Kiryat Arba yeshiva. Eliezer never condemned Lior, and was part of protest rally supporting Lior in 2011 after arrest warrant was issued against Lior for incitement after endorsing King's Torah. Jewish Underground leaders during 1980's which were arrested after attacks maiming several Arab mayors in the West Bank, an attack at Islamic college in Hebron that killed 3 students, and an attempt foiled by Shin Bet in which they planned to blow up buses carrying Arab workers from Jerusalem said they were inspired by rabbis Moshe Levinger, Dov Lior, and Eliezer Waldman. Dov Lior wasn't the only reason. Most of the people in Kiryat Arba admire Baruch Goldstein a person who massacred 29 Arabs and admire Meir Kahane who called all Arabs including Israel's Arab citizens to be expelled from Israel. The settlers constantly attack Arabs often injuring them(sometimes killing them) and destroying their property including often their livilhood(olive trees). Kiryat Arba is the settlement most known for these attacks. Again no Western country(including Israel within green-lines) has a similar situation like this. It would be like America having a government supported and protected community of KKK/Neo-Nazis in middle(in the case of Kiryat Arba) of or next(in a case like Yitzhar) to an African-American or Jewish community that constantly attacks them.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=S...&q=eliezer waldman underground jewish&f=false
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...ice-ministry-will-tell-me-what-to-do-1.342108


    "Israel is also not supporting of the Jews that hurt Arabs, which most of them are the Hilltop Youth that considered the current government in Israel as "left-wing government". "
    I never said Israel did. Extremist communities like Kiryat Arba(which Israeli government supports) as noted above support Jews hurting Arabs since in an example like Kiryat Arba their community admires Meir Kahane who called for all Arabs to be expelled from Israel, their community admires Baruch Goldstein who massacred 29 Arabs, they are led by extremists like Eliezer Waldman, and are communities known for harming Arabs. For someone that is constantly being attacked from settlements like Kiryat Arba and Yitzhar I'm guessing they aren't focusing on how much Israeli government support is. They probably are frustrated over the attack resulting in injury/andor loss of property such as olive groves or their house/or car being set on fire. They probably are frustrated that these attacks by people supported by Israeli government keep happening. While the Israeli government doesn't support hurting Arabs their reaction to Jewish violence is completely different than Arab violence. For one Israeli military uses lethal force against Arabs who throw stones even against armored soldiers while lethal force is not used against Jews who throw stones at Arabs and/or soldiers. When a Jew attacks an Arab their homes are never demolished either. There is also less cases of Jewish that attack Arabs being caught and prosecuted(I said less not none with only a handful of cases that went to the prosecution out of over roughly 1,600 incidents of settler attacks against Arabs over the past 4 years) with former Shin Bet head Carmi Gillon stating "Israel is not managing to stop &#8220;price tag&#8221; nationalist crimes against Arabs, because it does not have the desire to do so, former Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) chief Carmi Gillon said on Saturday.", &#8220;We don&#8217;t see results because we don&#8217;t have the intention to,&#8221; Gillon said, adding that in the Shin Bet &#8220;there&#8217;s no such thing as can&#8217;t &#8211; there&#8217;s don&#8217;t want to.&#8221; Former Yeshiva head Danny Dayan also noted "he has met with Israel&#8217;s attorney general, the police inspector general, the head of the Shin Bet clandestine security service and the army officer in charge of the area.&#8220;I begged. I would say I demanded of them to be more harsh, and first and foremost to be more effective,&#8221; Dayan added. &#8220;I don&#8217;t have an intelligent answer to the question why and how our law enforcement agencies are so unsuccessful.&#8221; The Israeli police said it formed a unit last year to thwart the phenomenon, and Dayan said it did help somewhat.But over the past eight years, according to UN figures, the annual rate of Israeli settler attacks has almost quadrupled.That sometimes leaves Palestinians feeling that their only recourse is taking law enforcement into their own hands." Former Mossad head Shabtai Shavit noted &#8220;Israel is a lawful country that does not enforce its laws.&#8221; If Israel venerated the law, Shavit said, such activity would be prevented by authorities." Also 92% of investigations against settler attacks they are closed without indictment.
    http://www.jpost.com/National-News/...ael-does-not-intend-to-stop-price-tags-351225
    http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-03-...tack-and-steal-palestinians-now-have-strategy
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-mossad-cheif-israel-doesnt-keep-its-own-laws/
    http://www.yesh-din.org/userfiles/Yesh Din_Akifat Hok_ English.pdf
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/settle...ign-of-terror-on-unarmed-palestinians/5366169


    "How I would react if a man would attack me? I will report him to the police, and would let the police do their job. Simple as that.
    I would never take the law to my hands and start attacking the man nor the community the come from."
    I didn't just ask that. Again here is the question below
    "if someone destroyed your house(leaving you homeless) if someone destroyed your livelihood(settlers often destroy olive grooves which are for many Arabs in West Bank their livelihood), note that settlers also threaten Arab lives with 24 Arabs in West Bank killed and 308 injured by settlers between 2004-2011 and 93(roughly for 2009-2013 each year ) attacks causing Arabs in West Bank to be injured, how would you react? how would you expect an average person to react to that?"
    You also aren't a citizen in this situation despite another country's nationals threatening to injury or kill you and taking away your livelihood, and other country demolishing your house leaving you homeless. Settlers usually aren't prosecuted for attacking Arabs with case study examining 996 investigation files(largest proportion of cases are near Nablus which has extremist settlements like Yitzhar(where one of the authors Yitzhak Shapira) of King's Torah lives and heads Yeshiva and South Hebron Hills in 92 percent of cases they were closed without indictment.
    http://www.yesh-din.org/userfiles/Yesh Din_Akifat Hok_ English.pdf
    So again please answer the question, again keep in mind your attacker would most likely not get indicated let alone prosecuted even if you identify them along with a witness, keep in mind you would be homeless with no recourse since the country that rules over you(which you aren't a citizen of) is the one that demolished your house. Could you honestly tell me you or an average person wouldn't at least think of revenge?

    Here are some examples of how police in West Bank examine cases of violence by settlers against Arabs
    On September 3, 2009, three Israeli civilians &#8211; two of them wearing hoods, one with his face visible, holding a stick and walking a dog &#8211; attacked Ibrahim Tawil, a Palestinian from the village of Faratha, on his own land. The three attackers were joined by three others, all of them wearing hoods, and together they removed Ibarhim&#8217;s belt and assaulted him with it. They then undressed him, stole his wallet and watch and left him in his underwear.
    At the police station, Tawil identified the unmasked attacker in a photo lineup. However, an internal police memo claimed that according to intelligence, the person had no connection to the region or the incident. Had the police bothered to make the minimal effort and examine the identified man&#8217;s criminal record, they would have found that he had a rich past of violence against Palestinians, including a conviction for using firearms. But police didn&#8217;t do that. The suspect was not summoned for an interrogation and the case was closed under the UP clause.
    "Let&#8217;s recap: even when the Palestinian victim identified an attacker known to the police &#8212; who attacked him with his face exposed &#8212; the police managed to avoid even questioning the suspect. Yesh Din appealed the decision to close the case, and the suspect was summoned for questioning (a year after the incident) and denied his alleged involvement. The interrogator did not ask him for an alibi, and the case was closed &#8211; again &#8211; under the UP(unknown perpetrator) clause.
    Tawil, who lives near the Havat Gilad settlement outpost, isn&#8217;t very lucky. Two months after the first incident, on November 26, 2009, he was attacked by four hooded people who came from the direction of the outpost &#8212; two of them arriving on the scene with dogs. He was beaten with a stone on his head and a stick on his back. The timely arrival of other village residents probably prevented more serious damage. Tawil lodged a complaint with the police, describing the clothes they wore noting that he was also attacked two months earlier.
    The police closed the file a month later, again citing the unknown perpetrator clause. Even though at the time the number of people residing in Havat Gilad was 20 at most, the police declined to use the simple method of checking who among them owns dogs fitting the description given by Tawil.
    Tawil, of course, is not the only victim whose attacker would never be found. On March 17, 2011, a group of hooded Israeli civilians assaulted Sami Snoubar, a Palestinian working in construction in the settlement of Shiloh. The four assailants hit him on his head with a metal bar and used pepper spray against him. The police&#8217;s identification of the suspects in this case was very incomplete, relying on the testimony of a medic who identified two of them, but who qualified his statement by saying he may have seen them at other incidents in the area.
    Police interrogated three suspects; all of them refused to cooperate with the investigation. Two of the suspects gave an alibi, which the Israel Police&#8217;s West Bank division, displaying its usual diligence, failed to check. The case of the third suspect is more shocking: he refused to cooperate with the investigation, declining to give an alibi, and in response the investigator offered him an alibi (!) by saying that the police will allow him to call his boss so that the latter could provide him with an alibi. The case was closed citing the unknown perpetrator clause.
    One of the most appalling cases is that of Yassin Rifa&#8217;i. On March 14, 2011 a Civil Administration officer informed Rifa&#8217;i, a resident of the Palestinian village Anata, that the residents of the settlement of Talmon uprooted dozens of trees from his land &#8211; allegedly as vengeance for a murder. The management of the settlement accepted responsibility for the incident and compensated Rifa&#8217;i for the damage.
    Police questioned the settlement&#8217;s security officer, who was asked whether he knew who committed the crime. The officer responded that he &#8220;preferred to keep the information to himself.&#8221; That would appear to be obstruction of justice, but the police did not pressure the security officer in any way, and he did not face any disciplinary action. Nor did the police try to find the Civil Administration officer who contacted Rifa&#8217;i. After all, it is much easier to scrawl &#8220;unknown perpetrator&#8221; on the case than try and find who the perpetrator really was."
    http://972mag.com/perpetrator-unknown-the-systemic-failure-to-investigate-settler-violence/107285/
    Here is another case closed on basis of unknown perpetrator despite the attackers identified both by victim along with a witness
    The case goes as follows. The client, Abd Al Latif Dar Samkhan, who resides in the village of Ras Karkar, heard on April 19, 2014 from his neighbors that settlers were on his land damaging his olive trees. He hurried to the scene along with members of his family, where he found a group of Israeli civilians (accompanied by two dogs) who were busily cutting down his trees. The Israelis retreated to a nearby pond, where they mocked the angry landowner and told him they were not scared of the police, using the opportunity to curse the name of the Prophet Muhammad. The Israelis climbed into a white car and &#8211; according to the witnesses &#8211; vanished in the direction of the settlement Neriya. They left behind some 60 cut-down olive trees.
    IDF and police forces reached the scene, where the police immediately took preliminary statements &#8211; with which it did nothing. In addition to the client was a witness, Azmi Samkhan. A month after the incident, on May 19, 2014, Azmi was summoned for a second testimony; he was asked to provide evidence that the land was indeed his. The police summoned him again the next day, and this time asked him to partake in a photo identification.
    Azmi&#8217;s response was unequivocal: he positively identified three suspects. &#8220;This is the man who threw stones at me,&#8221; he says, &#8220;that is the one who was cutting down the trees,&#8221; and &#8220;this one climbed on top of a sapling in order to break it down.&#8221; The identities of the suspects are known but we are forbidden from publishing their names; the police have the names. Azmi also described, once more, the dogs that followed the attackers: a black dog and one colored brown and white.
    One might have expected &#8212; were we not dealing with the SJPD &#8212; that after the three suspects were identified to the investigators, althoughthough it was a month after the incident, that they would summon them for an interrogation. One might have also expected the investigators to make an effort to find out who is the owner of the dogs.
    Keyword: might.
    The photo lineup held for Samkhan on May 20, 2014 was the last investigative action to be recorded in the case file. On April 28, 2015, nearly a year after the incident took place, and 11 months after Azmi identified three attackers, police closed the case. The clause justifying the act was UP &#8212; &#8220;unknown perpetrator.&#8221; That&#8217;s when my jaw dropped."
     
  21. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    As I already shwoed you:
    Fatah central committee member &#8216;Azzam Al-Ahmad declared in 2009 that the Fatah Charter has never been ammanded:
    The "Palestinian" National Council did meet in Gaza, 1996 and did voted to amend the Charter, but it was never happened. There was only a voting on the subject, but never actions to amend.
    According to the Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Information in a report from 1999 mentioned that the Fatah Charter has yet to be amended:
    This kind of statment was later on in 2009 was anounced by Azzam Al-Ahmad that the Fatah Charter remains as it was.

    Source: http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/...25785500565876

    This document is contradicting by have references on the actuall people from the PLO that their charter was never been amended, despite the vote they had.

    They did vote on the issue, but never fulfilled it.

    As the video shows, Bibi followed and respected Oslo Accords, and the evidences for it were Wye and Hebron Agreements, that made only because Oslo.

    So now it is not Dov Lior? Now you just jumping from one people to another like a rabbit.

    Your claims about Dov Lior are not relevent since he is no longer the chief Rabbi of Kyriat Arba.

    And this is the Arabs fault that they dont "care" about who is the Israeli government support, and prefer to generelize all the Jews, like 100% of them are extremists, which BTW, the extremists are a minority in the Israeli population, that seemed to be like a huge group because of the coverage of the media that prefer to cover all what the extremists are doing, and less about all of the Israeli population.

    So they need to go kill a rendom Jew?

    The Israeli government does not support "price tags" against Arabs, like the government doesnt support the attacks against Jews.

    As a veteran that took part of those violent protests by Arabs, I can tell you that the IDF are using only in those kind of protests means for dispersing demonstrations like robber bullets, smoke granedes, shock granedes etc.
    Those kind of means are been used all around the world when a protest is getting out of hand.

    So according to you if the police is not erresting a man (because they dont have enough evidences to do so- what Gilon said was his own opinion since he is no longer the head of the Shin Bet), the man that been attacked has the lagitimacy to go out and kill rendom people?

    As I told you, I would never take the law to my own hands. I would act as what the law is allowing me. I would never let myself break the law/ kill rendom people/ accuse other people about an act that an indevidual did to me.

    If a group of people are threatening me to hurt me, I would go to the police an report it. I would never take the law into my own hands. Esspecially if i'm not a citizen of the country I'm in.

    Honestly, still it doesnt give me the right or the lagitimacy to kill/hurt another man. Therefore, I would never take the law into my own hands and start massacaring/killing/harassing the population of the country.

    In reference to the first case, what were the names of those settlers that been identified?

    In reference to the second case, the manegment of the settlements compensated the Arab that been attacked. Moreover, the settlement didnt give the police to information they asked for, because according to the link you provided, the police didnt go the the settlement with a from from a court that force the settlements to give them the information the police asked, therefore, according to how gethering information is been done in the police, the police cant force them to give them the information without a form from a court, as I said.

    So once again, if the suspects were been identified, please tell us what are their names.
     
  22. Thunderbolt

    Thunderbolt Active Member

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    And he also said "Not even a single Jew will stay in the occupied Palestine" !
     
  23. xavierphoenix

    xavierphoenix New Member

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    "As I already shwoed you:
    Fatah central committee member ‘Azzam Al-Ahmad declared in 2009 that the Fatah Charter has never been ammanded:"
    The "Palestinian" National Council did meet in Gaza, 1996 and did voted to amend the Charter, but it was never happened. There was only a voting on the subject, but never actions to amend.
    According to the Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Information in a report from 1999 mentioned that the Fatah Charter has yet to be amended:
    This document is contradicting by have references on the actuall people from the PLO that their charter was never been amended, despite the vote they had.
    They did vote on the issue, but never fulfilled it."
    That is contradicted by official PLO charter at Israeli foreign ministry website saying hereby all articles that conflict with recognized Israel are cancelled. As mentioned before article 33 says if 2/3 of PLO congress is convened for purpose of amending charter than its amended which as required by article 33 in 1996 and 1998. Again this is according to your prime minister and others like Natan Sharansky. They would be calling for PLO charter to be amended if it wasn't.

    "As the video shows, Bibi followed and respected Oslo Accords, and the evidences for it were Wye and Hebron Agreements, that made only because Oslo. "
    Bibi in the video said he intended to drag out Oslo Accourds as long as possible. Wye accords wasn't serious with only 2% out of 13% withdrawal promised was completed. Hebron still left the Jewish Neo-Nazis left in middle of an Arab city. Would you call America leaving a group of protected KKK in middle of an African American city a serious compromise?


    "So now it is not Dov Lior? Now you just jumping from one people to another like a rabbit.
    Your claims about Dov Lior are not relevent since he is no longer the chief Rabbi of Kyriat Arba."
    I was talking about Eliezer Waldman who is the current chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba's yeshiva. As noted below he is close with Dov Lior and led protest rally against arrest warrant for Dov Lior for incitement(due to endorsing King's Torah), he also was one of the rabbis that inspired Jewish underground during 1980's to commit terrorist attacks against Arabs. If you are going to respond actually read what the person wrote.
    "Again I never said it was 2007 or 2004. On Dov Lior, successor to Dov Lior is Eliezer Waldman who is also extremist. One of the founders of Kiryat Arba Waldman worked closely with Lior at Kiryat Arba yeshiva. Eliezer never condemned Lior, and was part of protest rally supporting Lior in 2011 after arrest warrant was issued against Lior for incitement after endorsing King's Torah. Jewish Underground leaders during 1980's which were arrested after attacks maiming several Arab mayors in the West Bank, an attack at Islamic college in Hebron that killed 3 students, and an attempt foiled by Shin Bet in which they planned to blow up buses carrying Arab workers from Jerusalem said they were inspired by rabbis Moshe Levinger, Dov Lior, and Eliezer Waldman. Dov Lior(and Eliezer Waldman this part added from original comment) wasn't the only reason. Most of the people in Kiryat Arba admire Baruch Goldstein a person who massacred 29 Arabs and admire Meir Kahane who called all Arabs including Israel's Arab citizens to be expelled from Israel. The settlers constantly attack Arabs often injuring them(sometimes killing them) and destroying their property including often their livilhood(olive trees). Kiryat Arba is the settlement most known for these attacks. Again no Western country(including Israel within green-lines) has a similar situation like this. It would be like America having a government supported and protected community of KKK/Neo-Nazis in middle(in the case of Kiryat Arba) of or next(in a case like Yitzhar) to an African-American or Jewish community that constantly attacks them. "
    https://books.google.com/books?id=S...&q=eliezer waldman underground jewish&f=false
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...ice-ministry-will-tell-me-what-to-do-1.342108

    "And this is the Arabs fault that they dont "care" about who is the Israeli government support, and prefer to generelize all the Jews, like 100% of them are extremists, which BTW, the extremists are a minority in the Israeli population, that seemed to be like a huge group because of the coverage of the media that prefer to cover all what the extremists are doing, and less about all of the Israeli population."
    As a veteran that took part of those violent protests by Arabs, I can tell you that the IDF are using only in those kind of protests means for dispersing demonstrations like robber bullets, smoke granedes, shock granedes etc.
    Those kind of means are been used all around the world when a protest is getting out of hand."
    So according to you if the police is not erresting a man (because they dont have enough evidences to do so- what Gilon said was his own opinion since he is no longer the head of the Shin Bet), the man that been attacked has the lagitimacy to go out and kill rendom people?
    "So they need to go kill a rendom Jew?"
    I never said extremists weren't a minority in Israeli population. However, in settlements like Yitzhar and Kiryat Arba(which Israeli governments support) most of them are extremists. When these communities of government backed extremists constantly attack Arabs and destroy their livelihood the Arabs harassed by these extremists are understandably more frustrated and angry that Israeli government doesn't do anything(like prevent these attacks from reoccurring). I didn't say that Arabs don't riot against Israel. As one of the differences on how Israel treats Jewish extremists is that they never use live fire(live recently was approved against those who throw stones against soldiers during riots and agree rubber bullets and tear gas which most countries use against rioters should be used) against Jews doing the same offensive who throw stones against Arabs and/or IDF nor are any homes of Jews demolished for attacking Arabs. I never said Carmi was current head of Shin Bet(Yoram Cohen currently is) as a former Shin Bet head his opinion matters and carries more merit than you or I. I also didn't just cite Gillon I also cited a former Mossad head and former leader of council for all the settlements in the West Bank. Also Gillon didn't say Shin Bet wasn't stopping price tag attacks because of lack of evidence, again please read what the person wrote "Israel is not managing to stop “price tag” nationalist crimes against Arabs, because it does not have the desire to do so, former Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) chief Carmi Gillon said on Saturday.", “We don’t see results because we don’t have the intention to,” Gillon said, adding that in the Shin Bet “there’s no such thing as can’t – there’s don’t want to. I never said that they needed to go kill anyone. I'm just stating it's understandable that people who's homes are constantly demolished, constantly attacked by Israeli nationals protected by their government would have thought of revenge. Your own most decorated soldier Ehud Barak said the same in 1998 when he said "If I were a Palestinian of the right age, I'd eventually join one of the terrorist organizations."
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/25/israel-live-ammunition-measures

    "As I told you, I would never take the law to my own hands. I would act as what the law is allowing me. I would never let myself break the law/ kill rendom people/ accuse other people about an act that an indevidual did to me."
    "If a group of people are threatening me to hurt me, I would go to the police an report it. I would never take the law into my own hands. Esspecially if i'm not a citizen of the country I'm in. "
    "Honestly, still it doesnt give me the right or the lagitimacy to kill/hurt another man. Therefore, I would never take the law into my own hands and start massacaring/killing/harassing the population of the country. "
    Again I never said they should kill anyone. I only said anyone that it's understandable that someone that has lost their home, livelihood, and constantly under attack by settlers will have thought of revenge. People have rebelled on less, for example the Americans during revolution revolting mainly because of being taxed without representation. During entire history of conflict there is examples on both sides for example Irgun bombing Arab markets and buses in retaliation for Arab attacks on Jews during Arab revolt. Examples of current conflict for example Jews chanting death to Arabs after a terrorist attack by an Arab.

    "In reference to the first case, what were the names of those settlers that been identified?"
    Please actually read what the person wrote
    "On September 3, 2009, three Israeli civilians – two of them wearing hoods, one with his face visible, holding a stick and walking a dog – attacked Ibrahim Tawil, a Palestinian from the village of Faratha, on his own land. The three attackers were joined by three others, all of them wearing hoods, and together they removed Ibarhim’s belt and assaulted him with it. They then undressed him, stole his wallet and watch and left him in his underwear.
    At the police station, Tawil identified the unmasked attacker in a photo lineup. However, an internal police memo claimed that according to intelligence, the person had no connection to the region or the incident. Had the police bothered to make the minimal effort and examine the identified man’s criminal record, they would have found that he had a rich past of violence against Palestinians, including a conviction for using firearms. But police didn’t do that. The suspect was not summoned for an interrogation and the case was closed under the UP clause.
    "Let’s recap: even when the Palestinian victim identified an attacker known to the police — who attacked him with his face exposed — the police managed to avoid even questioning the suspect. Yesh Din appealed the decision to close the case, and the suspect was summoned for questioning (a year after the incident) and denied his alleged involvement. The interrogator did not ask him for an alibi, and the case was closed – again – under the UP(unknown perpetrator) clause."
    In a society governed by law the suspect would have been questioned immediately and indicated depending what the question indicated. The suspect was questioned a year after the incident with no alibi asked and case closed afterwards.


    "Tawil, who lives near the Havat Gilad settlement outpost, isn’t very lucky. Two months after the first incident, on November 26, 2009, he was attacked by four hooded people who came from the direction of the outpost — two of them arriving on the scene with dogs. He was beaten with a stone on his head and a stick on his back. The timely arrival of other village residents probably prevented more serious damage. Tawil lodged a complaint with the police, describing the clothes they wore noting that he was also attacked two months earlier.
    The police closed the file a month later, again citing the unknown perpetrator clause. Even though at the time the number of people residing in Havat Gilad was 20 at most, the police declined to use the simple method of checking who among them owns dogs fitting the description given by Tawil."
    The same person was attacked two months later with police not bothering to check for example if dogs matched description of perpetrators coming from outpost.

    "Tawil, of course, is not the only victim whose attacker would never be found. On March 17, 2011, a group of hooded Israeli civilians assaulted Sami Snoubar, a Palestinian working in construction in the settlement of Shiloh. The four assailants hit him on his head with a metal bar and used pepper spray against him. The police’s identification of the suspects in this case was very incomplete, relying on the testimony of a medic who identified two of them, but who qualified his statement by saying he may have seen them at other incidents in the area.
    Police interrogated three suspects; all of them refused to cooperate with the investigation. Two of the suspects gave an alibi, which the Israel Police’s West Bank division, displaying its usual diligence, failed to check. The case of the third suspect is more shocking: he refused to cooperate with the investigation, declining to give an alibi, and in response the investigator offered him an alibi (!) by saying that the police will allow him to call his boss so that the latter could provide him with an alibi. The case was closed citing the unknown perpetrator clause."
    In this case one of the suspects even refused to provide an alibi which is a crime since that's obstruction of justice.

    "One of the most appalling cases is that of Yassin Rifa’i. On March 14, 2011 a Civil Administration officer informed Rifa’i, a resident of the Palestinian village Anata, that the residents of the settlement of Talmon uprooted dozens of trees from his land – allegedly as vengeance for a murder. The management of the settlement accepted responsibility for the incident and compensated Rifa’i for the damage.
    Police questioned the settlement’s security officer, who was asked whether he knew who committed the crime. The officer responded that he “preferred to keep the information to himself.” That would appear to be obstruction of justice, but the police did not pressure the security officer in any way, and he did not face any disciplinary action. Nor did the police try to find the Civil Administration officer who contacted Rifa’i. After all, it is much easier to scrawl “unknown perpetrator” on the case than try and find who the perpetrator really was."
    "Moreover, the settlement didnt give the police to information they asked for, because according to the link you provided, the police didnt go the the settlement with a from from a court that force the settlements to give them the information the police asked, therefore, according to how gethering information is been done in the police, the police cant force them to give them the information without a form from a court, as I said.?"
    Nowhere in link did it say that. In this case the settlement security's officer was questioned and asked if he knew who uprooted the olive trees he responded with that he “preferred to keep the information to himself.” which is obstruction of justice(not providing information to police especially information like this where the settlement security officer admits to knowing perpetrator) which again is a crime.

    So once again, if the suspects were been identified, please tell us what are their names.
    Again read what the person wrote
    "Here is another case closed on basis of unknown perpetrator despite the attackers identified both by victim along with a witness
    The case goes as follows. The client, Abd Al Latif Dar Samkhan, who resides in the village of Ras Karkar, heard on April 19, 2014 from his neighbors that settlers were on his land damaging his olive trees. He hurried to the scene along with members of his family, where he found a group of Israeli civilians (accompanied by two dogs) who were busily cutting down his trees. The Israelis retreated to a nearby pond, where they mocked the angry landowner and told him they were not scared of the police, using the opportunity to curse the name of the Prophet Muhammad. The Israelis climbed into a white car and – according to the witnesses – vanished in the direction of the settlement Neriya. They left behind some 60 cut-down olive trees.
    IDF and police forces reached the scene, where the police immediately took preliminary statements – with which it did nothing. In addition to the client was a witness, Azmi Samkhan. A month after the incident, on May 19, 2014, Azmi was summoned for a second testimony; he was asked to provide evidence that the land was indeed his. The police summoned him again the next day, and this time asked him to partake in a photo identification.
    Azmi’s response was unequivocal: he positively identified three suspects. “This is the man who threw stones at me,” he says, “that is the one who was cutting down the trees,” and “this one climbed on top of a sapling in order to break it down.” The identities of the suspects are known but we are forbidden from publishing their names; the police have the names. Azmi also described, once more, the dogs that followed the attackers: a black dog and one colored brown and white.
    One might have expected — were we not dealing with the SJPD — that after the three suspects were identified to the investigators, althoughthough it was a month after the incident, that they would summon them for an interrogation. One might have also expected the investigators to make an effort to find out who is the owner of the dogs.
    Keyword: might.
    The photo lineup held for Samkhan on May 20, 2014 was the last investigative action to be recorded in the case file. On April 28, 2015, nearly a year after the incident took place, and 11 months after Azmi identified three attackers, police closed the case. The clause justifying the act was UP — “unknown perpetrator.” That’s when my jaw dropped."
    In this case the victim identified his attackers along with witness who was there which in a society governed by laws the suspects would have been questioned and indicated.

    Again when you respond, read everything what the person said.
     
  24. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    As I already shwoed you:
    Fatah central committee member &#8216;Azzam Al-Ahmad declared in 2009 that the Fatah Charter has never been ammanded:
    The "Palestinian" National Council did meet in Gaza, 1996 and did voted to amend the Charter, but it was never happened. There was only a voting on the subject, but never actions to amend.
    According to the Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Information in a report from 1999 mentioned that the Fatah Charter has yet to be amended:
    This kind of statment was later on in 2009 was anounced by Azzam Al-Ahmad that the Fatah Charter remains as it was.

    Source: http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/...25785500565876

    This document is contradicting by have references on the actuall people from the PLO that their charter was never been amended, despite the vote they had.

    They did vote on the issue, but never fulfilled it.

    Bibi said he will respect and follow Oslo Accords, and that's why Wye an Hebron agreements were made.
    The Oslo Accords was dragged out, because of problem that the Arabs made, as Bibi stated it in the video, which led him to dragged out the fulfillmet of Hebron. But of course it doesnt stopped him to fulfill them.

    So according to you, it is wrong and you are against it that Israel would give land to the Arabs?

    Well accoreding to a memo that was signed between Abas and Israel in 2008, the Jews that live in Hebron have th right to live there. Moreover, in Oslo it wasnt mentioned that the Jews from Hebron must be evecuated, like it never mentioned any of the settlements.

    Rbbi Eliezer Waldman is not the chief rabbi of Kirya Arba, but he is only Dean of Yeshivat Nir in Kiryat Arba.
    Source: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Author.aspx/91

    Hence, since he is not the chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba, then what he said is not relevent.
    Please, if you want to talk about the chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba, then please provide his name, and stop to make up things about the actuall chief rabby.

    I never said you say it. I talked about the Arabs. As you said to me:
    Did you made a survey and checked it? Because if not then you are just generelizing.

    As I already said:
    The Israeli government does not support "price tags" against Arabs, like the government doesnt support the attacks against Jews.

    I didnt state that you did. As you wrote to me:
    Israel also in the pasy didnt use live ammunition toward Arabs, but there were rubber bullets and all that. (the ones who was at the end discoverd that did use, then they were put to court and was punished.

    Do you know there is a difference between "appproved" and "acutally used". If I remember currectly, until now (from the point when it was approved) the IDF didnt shot live ammunition toward Arab protestors.

    Not really. Carmi he is today ordinery citizen like you and I, thus it makes him no more importent that you and I.
    What he toady is saying it's is only opinion and nothing more.

    This is relevent to the all of the people that were head od the mossad, Shin Bet and all that, that you cited.

    I'm reading everything you wrote, and what you gave here about Gilon is his opinion, an opinion of a concern citizen. not more.

    I never said you say that, I only asked you a question.
    As you wrote to me:
    A "revenge" does not mean that a peson must go kill a rendom Jew. There are other actions, that dont break the law that you can say that it is a revenge.

    And what Ehud Barak stated was his only opinion.

    I never said you say that. As you wrote to me:
    We are living today in a country, and not just living all over in a territory that there is no state, hecne this exemple of yours is not relevent (since, again, the exemple is talking about an action that were before the country eshtablishment, and today reality is with the country- those are two different realities).

    I already read what you provided here in the secodn time. And still what you provided here does not answer my question.
    My question was who were the men that were identified, what were their names, and yet I didnt get names. So once again:

    what were the names of those settlers that been identified?

    And it is happen, that a police close a case because they dont have enough evidences, which would allow the continuing of the check up of the case.
    It is happening even when a Jew is filing a report in the police. Nothing new here.

    So if two of them were identified, what were their names?

    Do you know that when a men/women are going to an interogation in a police station, they have all the right to not cooperate, and to not speak in the interogation, you know that? It happens all the time- nothing new.

    As I already wrote to you:
    the settlement didnt give the police to information they asked for, because according to the link you provided, the police didnt go the the settlement with a form from a court that force the settlements to give them the information the police asked, therefore, according to how gethering information is been done in the police, the police cant force them to give them the information without a form from a court, as I said.

    A police needs a form from a court so the side that been questioned for a information would must give them the information.

    So at one point you stated that the men that did what they did are known to the police, and in the end of this part you say that the close the case because they do not know who were the men ("unknown perpetrator").
    please try to stay consistent with what you wrote (or the links that you provide)

    I read everything what you wrote, like I do everytime that a person in this forum is quoting me.
     
  25. xavierphoenix

    xavierphoenix New Member

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    "This document is contradicting by have references on the actuall people from the PLO that their charter was never been amended, despite the vote they had.
    They did vote on the issue, but never fulfilled it.
    This kind of statment was later on in 2009 was anounced by Azzam Al-Ahmad that the Fatah Charter remains as it was. This document is contradicting by have references on the actuall people from the PLO that their charter was never been amended, despite the vote they had.They did vote on the issue, but never fulfilled it."
    Article 33 says if (2/3)congress of PLO meets for the purpose of amending charter than it's amended. They did that in 1996 and 1998. The viewpoint of Israeli government including right like Bibi and Natan Sharansky(among others) with Israeli foreign ministry website stating it's amended. Bibi and others would be demanding charter to be amended if it wasn't.

    "Bibi said he will respect and follow Oslo Accords, and that's why Wye an Hebron agreements were made.
    The Oslo Accords was dragged out, because of problem that the Arabs made, as Bibi stated it in the video, which led him to dragged out the fulfillmet of Hebron. But of course it doesnt stopped him to fulfill them."
    Bibi openly admitted that he intended to drag it out as noted below
    "What were the Oslo accords? The Oslo accords, which the Knesset signed, I was asked, before the elections: &#8220;Will you act according to them?&#8221; and I answered: &#8220;Yes, subject to reciprocity and limiting the withdrawals.&#8221; But how do you limit the withdrawals? I interpret the accords in such a way that will enable me to stop this rush towards the 1967 borders. [So] how do we do it?
    [Narrator] The Oslo accords stated at the time that Israel would gradually hand over territories to the Palestinians in three different stages, unless the territories in question had settlements or military sites. This is where Netanyahu found a loophole.
    [Natanyahu] No one said what defined military sites. Defined military sites, I said, were security zones. As far as I&#8217;m concerned, the Jordan Valley is a defined military site.
    [Woman] Right [laughs]. The Beit She&#8217;an settlements. The Beit She&#8217;an Valley.
    [Natanyahu] How can you tell. How can you tell? But then the question came up of just who would define what defined military sites were. I received a letter &#8211; to me and to Arafat, at the same time &#8230; which said that Israel, and only Israel, would be the one to define what those are, the location of those military sites and their size. Now, they did not want to give me that letter, so I did not give the Hebron agreement. I stopped the government meeting, I said: &#8220;I&#8217;m not signing.&#8221; Only when the letter came, in the course of the meeting, to me and to Arafat, only then did I sign the Hebron agreement, or rather, ratify it. It had already been signed. Why does this matter? Because at that moment I actually stopped the Oslo accord."
    Again Wye accord wasn't serious compromise it was only an agreement of 13%(only 2% carried out) military withdrawal. Hebron accords as noted before left the Jewish version of Neo-Nazi settlers left in middle of Arab city. Again if America left a bunch of kkk in middle of an African-American city guarded by soldiers would you call that a compromise?

    "So according to you, it is wrong and you are against it that Israel would give land to the Arabs?"
    Withdrawals are only good if it means Israel has less responsibility over Arabs residing in Gaza Strip and West Bank. I don't want Israel to be an apartheid state(in West Bank) or see it turn into an bi-national(evenutual Arab state) state guaranteeing a party like Joint List to be the government coalition; . Ariel Sharon a hawk for most of its lifetimes and opponent of Oslo Accords(voted against Hebron Accords while in cabinet) did the disengagement along with many from Likud who also opposed Oslo Accords; Tzipi Livni, Meir Sheetrit, Shaul Mofaz, Ehud Olmert,etc. all fiercely opposed Oslo Accords but in the end followed Sharon due to Israel unable to be a Jewish democratic state as long as occupation continues with nearly all of Israel's founders and most of Israel's security establishment(entire job is to defend Israel) agreeing on. The IDF is one of the world's greatest militaries in the world. If it wanted to it could make the fence the border, dismantle both sides extremists the settlements eat of the fence which tend to be more radical(largely due to people moving there for ideology reasons while those in settlement blocs are mostly there for financial reasons), along with operation defensive shield style to dismantle Aqsa martyr brigade, Tanzim, Hamas units in West Bank. Making the fence the border means you can also impose closure on West Bank in response to terrorist attacks which for example in current wave of terror could stop it since most of the attackers are from West Bank including attacks that have occurred on Israel proper. That would be the best out of not any good options.

    "As I already said:
    The Israeli government does not support "price tags" against Arabs, like the government doesnt support the attacks against Jews."
    Not really. Carmi he is today ordinery citizen like you and I, thus it makes him no more importent that you and I.
    What he toady is saying it's is only opinion and nothing more.
    This is relevent to the all of the people that were head od the mossad, Shin Bet and all that, that you cited."
    I didn't say Israeli government support "price tags". I have said that they rarely take action with most settlers that attack Arabs rarely get prosecuted and convicted(handful of convicts when there have been more than 1,600 incidents of settlers attacking Arabs for the past four years). nor is Israeli government doing anything to stop settler attacks that have opened over the past couple years and increased. I cited Carmi Gillon former Shin Bet head, Shabtai Shavit, and Dani Dayan former head of settlement council, all say the same thing. They carry more merit than you or I especially Gillon(Shavit to lesser extent since Mossad is responsibility for foreign intelligence) since he was former head of Shin Bet agency responsibly for domestic security of all of Israel's citizens. Dayan is former settlement head council giving him more merit than either of us.
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/settle...ign-of-terror-on-unarmed-palestinians/5366169

    "A "revenge" does not mean that a peson must go kill a rendom Jew. There are other actions, that dont break the law that you can say that it is a revenge. "
    And what Ehud Barak stated was his only opinion."
    I never said revenge means a person goes kill a random Jew. I said if someone lost their home, their livelihood, was constantly at risk of being injured or losing their life it's understandably they would want revenge. What that happens to a person they won't often do the rational thing. In criminology for example they would be called a crime of passion. Ehud Barak is your most decorated soldier, as a result his opinion carries heavy weight.

    I" already read what you provided here in the secodn time. And still what you provided here does not answer my question.
    My question was who were the men that were identified, what were their names, and yet I didnt get names. So once again:
    what were the names of those settlers that been identified?"
    The case is below
    "On September 3, 2009, three Israeli civilians &#8211; two of them wearing hoods, one with his face visible, holding a stick and walking a dog &#8211; attacked Ibrahim Tawil, a Palestinian from the village of Faratha, on his own land. The three attackers were joined by three others, all of them wearing hoods, and together they removed Ibarhim&#8217;s belt and assaulted him with it. They then undressed him, stole his wallet and watch and left him in his underwear.
    At the police station, Tawil identified the unmasked attacker in a photo lineup. However, an internal police memo claimed that according to intelligence, the person had no connection to the region or the incident. Had the police bothered to make the minimal effort and examine the identified man&#8217;s criminal record, they would have found that he had a rich past of violence against Palestinians, including a conviction for using firearms. But police didn&#8217;t do that. The suspect was not summoned for an interrogation and the case was closed under the UP clause.
    "Let&#8217;s recap: even when the Palestinian victim identified an attacker known to the police &#8212; who attacked him with his face exposed &#8212; the police managed to avoid even questioning the suspect. Yesh Din appealed the decision to close the case, and the suspect was summoned for questioning (a year after the incident) and denied his alleged involvement. The interrogator did not ask him for an alibi, and the case was closed &#8211; again &#8211; under the UP(unknown perpetrator) clause."
    In a society governed by law the suspect would have been questioned immediately and indicated depending what the question indicated. The suspect was questioned a year after the incident with no alibi asked and case closed afterwards."
    It doesn't say who it was. The suspect was identified by Tawil with suspect having past record for violence against Arabs. In a society governed by rule of law the case wouldn't have been closed with unknown perpetrator.

    "Do you know that when a men/women are going to an interogation in a police station, they have all the right to not cooperate, and to not speak in the interogation, you know that? It happens all the time- nothing new."
    I never said they had to. In that case you were talking about 3 of them didn't cooperate with only 1 providing alibi, all of them were identified by a medic. All of that would make it difficult to close it as unknown perpetrator. The other cases are worse since the suspects were identified by victim with one along with witness at scene of crime.

    "As I already wrote to you:
    the settlement didnt give the police to information they asked for, because according to the link you provided, the police didnt go the the settlement with a form from a court that force the settlements to give them the information the police asked, therefore, according to how gethering information is been done in the police, the police cant force them to give them the information without a form from a court, as I said."
    A police needs a form from a court so the side that been questioned for a information would must give them the information."
    Form would be material witness warrant nowhere in link does it say issue is that forum wasn't given. Actually bold where in the link it says forum is required. The issue is that the officer admitting to knowing who the perpetrator was and then refusing to say who it was which would be obstruction of justice; right to be remain silent doesn't apply here since talking wouldn't incriminate himself as he is not the perpetrator of the crime.

    "So at one point you stated that the men that did what they did are known to the police, and in the end of this part you say that the close the case because they do not know who were the men ("unknown perpetrator").
    please try to stay consistent with what you wrote (or the links that you provide)"
    And it is happen, that a police close a case because they dont have enough evidences, which would allow the continuing of the check up of the case.
    It is happening even when a Jew is filing a report in the police. Nothing new here."
    Please read what I wrote. The police closed these cases on the claim of unknown perpetrator when they should not have and a society governed by rule of law the police would not have closed these cases since the suspects were identified by the victim along with a witness in one of the cases. In these cases in a society governed by rule of law their would have been indictment since suspects were identified by victim along with in one case by a witness at crime, from there then it would be up to the courts to decide if there is enough evidence to convict suspect.

    "Well accoreding to a memo that was signed between Abas and Israel in 2008, the Jews that live in Hebron have th right to live there. Moreover, in Oslo it wasnt mentioned that the Jews from Hebron must be evecuated, like it never mentioned any of the settlements."
    Memo wasn't signed between Abbas and Israel. It's internal PA memo from Palestinian support negotiation team to Palestinian negotiation team.The memo has no legal standing as they were part of a memo to Palestinian negotiating team during negotiations for a Palestinian state which never was completed and agreed on. One of its policy options is recognizing right of return for Jews that resided in West Bank before 1948 and lost their property/lands being able to return to their property/land if possible as residents of a Palestinian state agreed upon in negotiations and compensation if return is not possible. As mentioned numerous times the fact is none of the settlers in Kiryat Arba fit this since none of them are from Hebron or even direct descendants of people from Hebron, please read what people write since I have mentioned everything in this paragraph before and you keep ignoring it.
    http://articles.philly.com/1997-03-03/news/25573179_1_settlers-arab-riots-hebron
    http://www.ajtransparency.com/en/projects/thepalestinepapers/201218203525218283.html

    "Hence, since he is not the chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba, then what he said is not relevent.
    Please, if you want to talk about the chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba, then please provide his name, and stop to make up things about the actuall chief rabby. "
    It does matter since he was chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba till last year holding important position for Kiryat Arba and is respected by most of Kiryat Arba despite acts like calling Baruch Goldstein holier than victims of the holocaust. Eliezer Waldman still matters since he is chief dean for their yeshiva and is close to Dov Lior, as mentioned before both Lior and Waldman was cited by Jewish underground terrorist group during 1980's as one of their inspirations. I have tried to look up current chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba and haven't found out who it's.


    "Did you made a survey and checked it? Because if not then you are just generelizing."
    This is reflected by their actions. In Yitzhar their chief rabbi is one of the authors of King's Torah. As mentioned before chief dean of Yeshiva for Kiryat Arba is Eliezer Waldman and his close associate Dov Lior was chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba until last year. Most of the settler attacks come from settlements like Yitzhar with most of investigation files opened against settlers are against those in Hebron hills(where Kiryat Arba is) and by Nablus(where Yitzhar and Itamar is). As mentioned before Jeffrey Goldberg went to Kiryat Arba where there were grafti of Meir Kahane on Arab property in 2004 and also interviewed one of the residents Anat Cohen where in her home were portraits of Baruch Goldstein and Meir Kahane. Goldstone's gravestone is at Kiryat Arba where his inscription reads "To the holy Baruch Goldstein, who gave his life for the Jewish people, the Torah and the nation of Israel" and since then have become a pillage site for Jewish extremists. Ideological extremist settlements like this are forming a second defacto apartheid state of Israel in the West Bank described by former Shin Bet head Yuval Diskil. This de facto state needs to be dismantled.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/685792.stm
    http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/32678
    http://www.jta.org/2015/08/07/news-...ist-ideology-growing-among-religious-zionists
     

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