US Muslims: this is worse than after 9/11

If that was the case, the entire world would have been Muslim by now. But ignoring your blatant brushing of all Muslims in one single stroke, every single individual makes his own choices. When a person commits a crime or a terrorist act, you look at what drove that person to do so from a psychosocial standpoint first and foremost, one that regards the individual's intent and motivations. That is justice. You don't go chasing after their ideologies because all you're doing is making the problem worse (i.e. the U.S.A.'s chase after Saddam which left Iraq to the brink of total chaos and destruction).

 

You confuse war with victory, the muslims have waged war ever since mohammud got his army in Medina but have not been able to conquer the entire world. Hence, continuous war for 1400 years.

Each crime is the act of an individual, but when all those individuals have a common intent and motivation and there views were incubated in the same environment, then that particular environment is clearly at fault. For example, the environment created by islam.

What does ISIS, ISIL, Boko Haram, the Paris terrorists, the bombers of the USS Cole, Hezbolla killers, Palestinian suicide bombers all have in common? They all shriek alahu Akbar while committing their murders and tortures. Complete indictment of islam right there.

 

Trying to change the issue again? I have said nothing about muslims having to support a political agenda other than they should oppose ISIS and radical islam.

If they do not unequivocally oppose radical islam then they should be evicted from the country. Maybe the nation should follow the FDR model and round up all muslims and put them in camps.

 

What a flimsy argument. You're basing it on prejudice more than stated fact. The Islamic Empire was in a state of peace for centuries and spread primarily through merchants, trade, and - when provoked - by the sword. Mecca was reconquered without shedding even a drop of blood.

So, what you're telling me essentially is that because the Crusaders and the KKK are both Christian groups, then Christianity is to blame, and not, for example, a bigoted pope or a racist bunch of white Americans. Doesn't add up. In the end, it's always people who kill people. Ideas and religions don't.

Right, so I suppose we should blame Judaism for Israeli soldiers who exclaim "Long live Israel!" whenever they attack and kill Palestinians. Good logic there, bud.

 

I'm not changing the issue at all. Here you are saying that Muslims should either oppose Daesh or be persecuted, rounded up, and placed in internment camps. Clearly, you're splitting Muslims into two groups: what you would call "good" Westernized Muslims and "bad" Muslims who don't want to conform to your silly dichotomous ideology. That's going to alienate more Muslims and foment radicalism to begin with.

 

By your logic, the Nazi concentration camps were the product of a few anti-Semitic individuals and not the result of the Nazi philosophy. Then we should not fear the Nazi philosophy and should treat people who are current Nazi's just as we would treat any other political candidate, there is no reason to associate them with Hitler or the 1940's - right? After all, its just individual people who kill, and people are not indoctrinated and motivated by anything like religion or politics or nationalism - right?

 

No, I am addressing muslims in the US only. Do they support radical islam or not? Hard to tell because they are so silent on the subject, but given the severity and brutality of radical islam their silence indicts them. The muslims in the US don't have a problem complaining about being seen as suspicious, so they have a voice, they just don't use it to berate radical islam.

And if they quietly support radical islam as appears to be the case, then they are already alienated and radicalized.

 

The problem there is that they are NOT silent...you just refuse to hear them.

Virtually every Muslim group in the nation has condemned the Paris attacks and yet you still claim they are silent.

 

Words are cheap. The Islamic Society of Boston condemned the actions publicly too. However this is the very same mosque where the Boston Marathon Bombers attended.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/23/boston-mosque-radicals/2101411/

Why should I trust anything that is said when their holy book permits lying to further the will of Allah?
http://muslimfact.com/bm/terror-in-...ts-lying-to-deceive-unbelievers-and-bri.shtml

 

Avoiding the obvious Reductio ad Hitlerum, you're forgetting that Nazism is a terrible ideology that was created by a psychopath of a person and is a separate discussion on its own. That being said, individual people live in circumstances both in their control and beyond it, from their socioeconomic status and psychosocial stressors right up to their beliefs. Ultimately, the individual interprets his or her situation and deems that the best way forward is to commit to a certain action, be it saving the life of a human being or killing one. In the end, what does it matter to the victim? Nothing.

 

To repetitively ask Muslims to condemn terrorism and apologize for the actions of a handful few is like asking a Greek Orthodox Christian in Cyprus to apologize for the KKK in the USA. It is bigoted and simply idiotic. The issue here is Muslims in the US, and they'll tell you that overwhelmingly they condemned 9/11. The next time I find a white person, I'm going to force him or her to apologize for the KKK and Timothy McVeigh.

I somehow knew this was going to come up: the fictional concept of Taqiya. There isn't a SINGLE verse in the Koran that permits lying. On the contrary, there is one chapter, Al-Mursalat, which repeats the phrase, "Woe, on the Day of Judgement, be to the Liars!". There are multiple verses and morals in Islamic tradition that condemn liars to one of the lowest pits of Hell. Do you have an actual verse or Islamic traditional concept as opposed to a website that claims to be a factual source on Islam when clearly it has an Islamophobic slant? I'll be waiting.

 

hew may have attended...but no one in that Mosque was implicated.

Should we go after the Church that Timothy McVeigh attended?

 

You can't be Serious. You are now a Koran apologist too. Why don't you attempt to find an Israeli that believes a single word of your interpretation? I know of the genocide going on in Africa. You can't justify bringing this in to our country.

 

They make it very clear indeed. Step away from your TV for a few moments and read what they are saying over the web. If I can do it I'm sure you can. A message doesn't need parades, flags and overt displays in order to get across. How come I know this stuff but you insist that you have to see Muslims in the street before you'll believe their sincerity? Actually I doubt it would make any difference to you.

 

If by "Koran apologist" you mean Muslim, then yes, I am a Muslim. And you still didn't provide concrete proof that the Koran, or any other Islamic religious text, endorses lying of any kind. I'm waiting.

 

They are only 'silent' because you are not listening, either by accident or design.

http://www.startribune.com/american-muslim-organizations-condemn-isis-terrorism/273886931/
One of many press releases: http://www.uscmo.org/pressreleases/

If your media are not reporting this blame them, not Muslims.

 

I fear you'll have a long wait...

 

If you read the thread, you will see several posts making your claim, few present evidence other than some public relations statement from some "muslim leader" or some organization such as CAIR. That's not muslims. Where is the outrage? If "radical Christians" were in Syria doing what the muslims are doing I would be outraged, I would be calling and writing and marching, and so would millions of others. You wouldn't be able to open a newspaper or watch the news without seeing Christians protesting against those atrocities.

Where are the muslims in the US? Where is their outrage? Its nowhere to be found.

 

Then you agree that an ideology can be the motivating factor, the mechanism by which people are indoctrinated, the means by which a society can be changed. The Nazi Party did it for evil in the 1920's-1940's. Islam has been doing it since the 7th century.

 

I have (and what makes you think I even have a tv?), others have, even people who support your position have checked the web. Other then one small demonstration in the US, all the links are to public relations statements from "muslim leaders" or organizations. No mass protests.

If muslims in the US don't want to be associated with radical islam then they better do something to distance themselves from it. That's so obvious that they surely understand it. But all they do is make mild little PR releases, and then complain about being looked at suspiciously. Clearly they are silent because they support radical islam.

 

Here you go: right wing terrorists, according to the FBI

 

What total BS. Islam and Nazism aren't even worthy in comparing. Islam is a religion that endorses a good and fruitful life, whereas Nazism is built around hate and intolerance

 

Couldn't agree more. I believe 2 things:
1. You can't always judge a book by it's cover,
BUT
2. Stereotypes exist for a reason.

For some reason unbeknownst to me, many people are all to happy to pick one of those beliefs, and get mad when you mention the other. I suppose some people are psychologically incapable of acknowledging that both of those statements are true.

 

Obviously you have not read the Koran. Mohammad is the equal of Hitler.

There are many, many verses like the following:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

So unless you are a true muslim, you Sunspear are the enemy to be either killed - because disbelief is worse than being killed - or forcibly converted to islam.

And when muslims say they are the "religion of peace" do you think they throw out all those verses (totaling 100's of lines of the koran) from the koran that order them to kill infidels? That's the Koran that muslims believe was given to them directly by God, so maybe God made a bunch of mistakes in dictating the Koran, or maybe Mohammed wrote down the wrong stuff a whole bunch of times?

 

You're making an exceptional logical fallacy, and an incorrect assumption. As a Muslim, I have read the Koran. Several times. In Arabic. And in English.

Oh, really? Did you read the verse before it?

[2:190] Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors. And there are 100's of verses in the Koran that promote love and kindness as well.

Right. And I'm supposed to believe someone who really didn't read Surat-ul-Anfal. Even then, God is the Ultimate Judge on who is right and who is wrong, not me, you, or anyone for that matter.

The messages in the Koran are not contradictory. They have a special place in certain circumstances. As for your quote, I don't believe Islam is a religion of peace nor is it a religion of war. It's just that: a religion, a spiritual code of ethics that binds a community together and dispenses edicts for those who wish to live their lives in accordance with that spirituality. What they use it for is their doing.