Respecting all views

I disagree. I like to think of myself as an objective liberal independent (this will probibly get a lol out of a few), and it is a privilege to have a spirited debate with an objective conservative, and I have had many such debates here on the forums. The problem as I see it is that much of the arguments are anecdotal hyperbole and all sides are guilty of this. When I look at political articles and cartoons from the past the same was true back then.

I been here 11 years and 11 years ago I was a cocky self-righteous conservative, 4 years ago I became a cocky self-righteous liberal, but over the last couple years I started to question why I always argued and the answer was that I was looking to set people straight... which was to assume that I knew how everything was... which in retrospect was quite arrogant. So I sought to minimize my bias and maximize my objectivity and went from intolerant lecturing to questioning in an effort to learn from the perspective of others.

Once one comes to the conclusion that they cannot control others, it becomes silly to try as it is an exercise in futility. Based upon this, learning from others becomes the only logical pursuit which requires objectivity and an open mind. I do not know if I have taught anyone here a single thing, but boy have I sure learned a lot!

 

Was referring to when FDR filled the court with pro-executive hacks when they didn't support his agenda.

 

America is in constant change (aka progressive), always has been and probibly always will unless we at some point become regressive or static. The humorous thing is many of on the left think many on the right want to fundamentally transform the USA. The source of strife is that forces on both sides want to take much but give little politically speaking. This is why I am an independent as I see both the RNC and the DNC as being blinded by their own agenda. Each accuses the other of doing that which they do themselves... such as being obstructionists. One mans obstructionist is an others principled stand. The objective understand this while the biased points the bony finger of indignation at their opponent.

 

And if I recall SCOTUS was a majority Republican during Roe vs Wade.

 

I've come across a great quote of Alexander Solzhenitsyn I think we all should take heed of:

“Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart -- and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained. And even in the best of all hearts, there remains ... an unuprooted small corner of evil.

Since then I have come to understand the truth of all the religions of the world: They struggle with the evil inside a human being (inside every human being). It is impossible to expel evil from the world in its entirety, but it is possible to constrict it within each person.”

 

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You are assuming I posted a bona fide argument. I didn't, I posted my opinion. I gave my perspective as to why I don't "respect all views" specifically when it comes to politics.

 

The right believes in change when it makes sense. The left believes in any change.

 

What makes sense is relative to the individual thus subjective. To some conservatives supporting same sex marriage makes sense while to other conservatives opposing same sex marriage makes sense. If you do not believe me follow the link and notice the "Attitudes by Political Party" and "Attitudes by Political Ideology" sections.
http://www.pewforum.org/2015/07/29/graphics-slideshow-changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

Which side of the SSM debate are you on? No matter what side you pick you will be at odds with some in your party. If "The right believes in change when it makes sense", then what change makes sense when the party is split on what "makes sense"? Who gets to decide for all republicans what makes sense and by what authority?

Spoken from a position of ignorance. The left also believes in change when it makes sense, but what makes sense is relative to the individual thus subjective. Not all liberals agree upon what makes sense, follow the link and notice the "Attitudes by Political Party" and "Attitudes by Political Ideology" sections.
http://www.pewforum.org/2015/07/29/graphics-slideshow-changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

Continue with your divisive banter if you must but I will not abandon objectivity to join you in your bias.

 

It's quite simple, really.
The solution is freedom.
The problem arises with abuse of power of one group imposing its agenda on others. Was religionists, now it's the socialists. They call it 'social justice' which is merely a cover for their abuse of others' freedoms.

 

All you need is love,love,love..

Love is all you need

 

That's not true at all and that kind of rhetoric is the reason there is such a schism between left and right

- - - Updated - - -

I must have missed where anyone is imposing anything on the right.

 

Actually it's pretty close. The only thing he got wrong is that the left doesn't believe in change for the better, because it has a perverted idea of what good is, thanks to the emotionalized thinking of leftists.

No, the schism is a consequence of the fact that the left has wholly abandoned common sense, almost as a matter of whatever passes for principle in the minds of the mentally ill.

 

Repeating someone else's nonsense and agreeing with it doesn't make it any more true and absolutely points how far apart left and right are and for what reason

 

lol
Affirmative Action, racial & gender quotas, demanding who a business can hire & serve. These are leftists policies that take away peoples' freedoms and inhibit their success.

 

Hard to respect anyone who at every turn looks to violate the constitution in whatever way possible he or she can. Thinks they know better than you how to live your life. And generally wants to interfere and control the manner in which everyone lives there lives as well. All while sitting on a mountain of hypocrisy in which they do the very thing they are trying to prevent us from doing. All collectivist, socialist, Communist, and other of their ilk should be run out of town at the first sign that their moral busybody know it all attitudes start shrilling about whatever goat (*)(*)(*)(*) issue there refined sensitivities don't like. And just to top it off are the biggest racist on the planet.

 

lol
And who determines what 'evil' is?
church folk think gays are evil.
Socialists think church folk are 'evil'.

 

Racism, bigotry, partyism, paranoia, ignorance, exclusion, elitism, etc., are regrettably all too human characteristics as the "tribal" history of our species demonstrates.

When we resort to using bumpersticker slogans and distorted representations of the "other" (regardless of what that "other" happens to be) to communicate complex, nuanced issues and perspectives, it typically does nothing more than illicit similar responses. Too many "partisans" are entrenched in ideological ideals, and criticism of opponents that simply are not borne out by the realpolitik. The power brokers of the world understand and exploit it while the grass roots partisans spout it.

Add to this the amazingly rapid human evolution of "thin skins" in the name of <insert cause/faith/ethnicity here>. Seems somebody taking offense at the words (real or imagined) of opponents has become SOP.

As to toning it down around here, nice sentiment, but entirely impractical as our denizens are here to not only proclaim their own opinions and philosophy but to refute the opinions and philosophies of their ideological opponents.

All true believers are staunch members of their tribe and revel in their inclusive conditional membership. Problem is the flip side is often aggressive, brutal exclusion of those of other tribes.
.


"We are cursed with paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions and god like technology." E.O. Wilson.

 

Well said. We all could use a little cooling off period per say from time to time. I'm guilty of going off the hinges at times myself.

 

I'm probably the most open minded person I know, can't help it. Everyone in my family was just raised that way. You try going to a family reunion and it literally looks like the entire UN delegation just recessed for lunch. (and I'm really not exaggerating)

Having said all of that, I will admit, that I am no fan of Sharia law, but not for all of it's compartments. Like most people I absolutely don't agree with the more extreme punishments like death by rocks, women having to marry the men that rape them, or the antiquated attitudes towards women that keep them "literally" in the back of the bus.

Even in Morocco the rape law has been banned, and now men just go to jail instead of their victims being forced to marry them.

I absolutely don't agree with honor killings under any circumstance's. (which most families don't do) Typically the men that carry out these incredibly insane punishments are extremely uneducated, and they come from impoverished areas. (not that - that's a good excuse)

Most Muslims just send their daughters away to "finishing school" or to live with "aunt Jamea" until the package is born and then they figure it out from there....but nobody dies.

I must admit that I don't understand why certain courts in certain places have allowed some Muslim communities to basically police themselves? One has to wonder if they do it because it's their way of "population control", meaning, let them police & kill themselves.

Do these courts do it because they can't, or are not allowed to impose their laws over the communities cultural religious laws, I don't know. Do they allow them to police themselves under their religious laws because they don't force other religious groups to change their culture or religious practices, and they don't want to give the appearance of being biased or unfair, I don't know.

Here in our country murder is murder, and if you commit murder (under religious expression or not) you should go to jail.

If a Mormon is married to all of his cousins (which is pretty sick) and that Mormon fathers multiple children and then sexually assaults one of his underage children, he should go to jail, and so on & so on & so on for all of these wacky religions and their insane practices.

So I'm with you on that point, and I too never hope to see the day when our country voluntarily just lets religious leaders police their own communities to the point where their religious laws supersede criminal law. But I feel this way towards all groups, not just the Arab and/or Muslim communities.

If you live in America, or if you be come an American citizen you should be subject to the established laws we have.

Not religious indoctrinate......laws.

There are many Mosques all throughout the Northeast here where I live and (as far as I know) all of these communities are low-key, cool, and there's no issues. I don't believe that any Imam's have even petitioned for their communities to be free from our American judicial system.

I think it's wrong to just automatically assume that everyone living in an Arabic or Muslim community would openly want this, even if they practice their rituals & culture within the privacy of their homes. Which none of us could stop if we wanted.

Girls & Guys are not allowed to date, they go from kids to teens, to school, to marriage, kids stay at home until they get married, and there's a host of other rules & regs that escapes me now but none of them are what I would consider extreme.

Don't worry, even if a few judges here lose their minds and allow Sharia law in certain communities it would never be wide spread. Also please realize that like I stated earlier - not all components of Sharia law are extreme or are what we would consider "over the top" or unreasonable.

 

I think anyone with truly an open mind would get frustrated at times with other people.... Sometimes people can just be robots and regurgitate nonsense someone else believes - all because they respect that person and submit their own intelligence out of awe, that or blindly buy and regurgitate ideas because they believe it's "consensus" without even thinking...

It would be one thing if I thought I was dealing with stupid people, but a lot of the people on this board aren't stupid - they're just misguided, and I find it at times frustrated to deal with an otherwise smart person, that doesn't think but rather regurgitates ideas or promoting a status quo...

I think a lot of people are afraid to think for themselves, learn and come to their own conclusions - it's like they're bound by political boundaries..

So, yeah it can be frustrating to deal with people at times - especially when they're factually straight up wrong, yet honestly believe they're right, but what pisses me off even more is when someone knowingly wrong put promotes wrong ideas just because it fits their politics - that will set me off...

IDK, I try not to let these people bother me anymore...

Also, at least here I have found it that I can at least agree with those I disagree with on at least something - weather it be a political issue, sports, music or just random non-political stuff, so that is nice...

 

Ok fair enough on almost all of your points. Lets take them "civilly" one by one.

I can post several links from the internet too but what I have that is much more powerful than internet links on subjects mostly written by people with opinions - I have 35 years of living near & dealing with Arabs & Muslims almost on a daily basis.

I grew up in Jersey, and I shopped in their stores, gotten to know them, their lifestyle, their culture, and I have their confidence.

I have 35 years worth of conversations discussing life in the Middle East.

I have 35 years of stories that would make you laugh until death or cry for hours.

I have 35 years of people telling me what life was like (back home) before they got here.

As far as I'm concerned, those 35 years of dealing with Arabs, including the things (my family in Morocco) have told & taught me about life over there - trumps whatever internet links you think you want to send me.

I'd say my "knowledge" in this arena is pretty damn strong.

For example here are two links, one more or less claims that honor killings are in-fact directly tied to Sharia law and the other explains the nuances. Are they correct or incorrect?????

http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/honor_killing.htm

http://www.cfr.org/religion/islam-governing-under-sharia/p8034

I'll try this again..........

Most families do not kill their kids for making mistakes, getting divorced, marrying outside of their religion, leaving the religion, or getting pregnant out of wedlock, the same way we wouldn't. Anybody in their right mind wouldn't, and thank God most of these people are in their right mind.

Others will & have, and they will tell you directly to your face (if there being honest) that it is part of Sharia law.

This back & forth between us all started because I responded to "Fallen's" post on his thoughts about Sharia law. All I did was agree with some of his concerns & sentiments.

Seems like (for whatever reason) my response to him ruffled some of your feathers, ok fair enough.

I know what I know because I've gotten all of my information straight from the horses mouth, and unless you can verifiably dispute or explain why dozens of people over 35 years would lie to me about these things.......then........I don't know what to tell you.

Why would these people lie to me, are they all wrong, why would Muslims tell me things that (if you think about it) makes their religion look sketchy? Can you answer any of those questions?

Regarding certain Muslim communities policing themselves and adhering to their own version of Sharia law within their communities - once again, what can I tell you, it happens.

I've traveled all across Europe and I've visited some of these almost all exclusively Muslim neighborhoods. (out of curiosity) Are they all evil people plotting to blow sh*t up, no - but you better believe they have their own sense of wrong & right, and the local authorities are mostly clueless as to what goes on from day to day within their homes.

Their have been crimes that have been committed in Europe, and there have been judges that have let people go based on their religious beliefs, convictions and religious law. (here as well)

Check it out for yourself: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...rom-laws-that-dont-burden-religious-practice/

Let's leave it at this, I know what I know from experience, not a book, bible, or an internet website, I can't prove 35 years worth of traveling and conversations. If you choose not to take my word for what I'm saying and stand on your convictions, cool.

It's enough for me that we both agree there are certain components of Sharia law that never need to supersede our laws.