Theistic Evolutionary Theory

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by DennisTate, May 23, 2016.

  1. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,491
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I actually do believe in evolution but I think that anybody who would dogmatically limit evolution to our four dimensional space time continuum lacks basic mathematical aptitude.

    Back in the 1990's I read several articles on GUT and string theory. Later on I read Stephen Hawking's Universe. in his chapter The Anthropic Principle he speculated that perhaps there were an infinite number of unsuccessful universes out there somewhere in which was no life due to the fact that electromagnetism, gravity, weak and strong nuclear force were not properly tuned for life as we know it. It seems obvious to me that another possibility is that the first intelligent life form might be composed of energy. Probably a fundamental energy such as SuperForce or Super Energetic Matter which may be the common denominator for all four forces active in our fourth space time dimensional continuum.

    13.72 billion years is roughly equal to ZERO time when compared with eternity. If fundamental energy would always have existed, as I assume Dr. Hawking seems to believe due to his suspicion of their having been an infinite number of unsuccessful universes and probably Big Bang + Grand Collapses, then if evolutionary theory could be expanded to have occurred within infinite time as opposed to limiting abiogenesis and evolution to abouit 4.5 billion years than you increase the probability of evolution being possible by essentially an infinite factor! I do believe in evolution occurring, but I suspect that perhaps 99% of evolution probably occurred before our Big Bang which was probably planned and choreographed by the Life Form/life forms that would probably be composed of fundamental energy.

    Is evolution more probable to have occurred within 13 billion years or within eternity?

    I must admit that these ideas about invisible higher space time dimensions sure does remind me of what many people who have a brush with death report.
     
  2. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,491
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Here are some quotations on the basic ideas behind Grand Unified Theory and String Theory:
    www.CarbonBias.blogspot.ca/
     
  3. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,491
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    One of the main motivators to discuss this theory is
    that it could play a significant role in breaking women out of
    near slavery conditions in many third world nations.......
    where various forms of Evolutionary Theory are allowed to be discussed.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/scien...ionary-theory-divine-feminine-god-mother.html
    Theistic Evolutionary Theory and The Divine Feminine/God The Mother??!!

    The masculine and feminine thought and behaviour patterns may have a basis in theoretical physics.

    http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/gender/g1.htm

    http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/book/life1.htm

     
  4. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    55,518
    Likes Received:
    27,044
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Hard to gauge the likelihood of [abiogenesis] (this is the real issue here, not evolution, which works on existing life no matter its origins) when it's so little understood, but 13 billion years is a very, very long time, as is 4.6 billion (the age of the earth). Animal life has only been around for a fraction of that time.
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  5. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,491
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Now this is what I call an intelligent comment on this topic!

    I joined a couple of Creation vs Evolution Facebook groups today. You just made a more intelligent comment in a few minutes than
    anybody there did over a number of hours.


    https://www.facebook.com/groups/222...group_comment_reply&notif_id=1471296508911342

    It would be nice if some of these guys joined this forum....
    I did give them the link to.......

    http://www.politicalforum.com/opini...lligence-begin-matter-fundamental-energy.html
    Where did Intelligence begin, in matter or fundamental energy?
     
  6. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,491
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Theistic Evolutionary Theory could help to set the stage for
    greater freedom and respect for women who live in nations
    heavily influenced by any of the three major Abrahamic religions.


    www.ThomasTwin.com/

     
  7. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,673
    Likes Received:
    1,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    thats before gubmints established and entrenched themselves as a religion as we have today
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  8. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,491
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    If... it is true that Dr. George Ritchie in his 1943 NDE was actually shown
    what was going on in fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth dimensional space - time.....
    from .... what would seem to be the ninth dimensional space - time or energy ..... THEN......

    .... his NDE indicates the level of intelligence / philosophy / interest in science and art /
    that beings moving within eighth dimensional space time have......
    which I would assume.....
    would give us an idea of what even higher level life forms.....
    think and act like.......

    http://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/george-ritchie.html#a05e
    This last statement about high level beings.....
    seemingly in eighth dimensional space - time energy....
    being unable to view Dr. George Ritchie and his being of light friend......

    fits with String Theory... and how a seventh dimensional space - time dimension...
    would somehow be INVISIBLE... .from the point of view of the sixth... fifth and fourth dimension.....
    Some good quotations on this are in post #2....

    The ninth dimensional space - time dimension would be invisible... to a life form still in the eighth dimension.....
     
  9. Johnny Brady

    Johnny Brady New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2016
    Messages:
    3,377
    Likes Received:
    45
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I like Senator John McCains nicely-balanced view- "I believe in evolution, but when I hike the Grand Canyon at sunset I see the hand of God there also"
     
  10. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,176
    Likes Received:
    1,075
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    All matter are forms of energy, so I'm not sure you're saying what you mean to say. I'm not sure exactly how you would define a intelligent life form, but I would assume you would require a structure that would have to exist for at least some time in order to qualify as intelligent (or life), and I would have thought ones made from a super force would tear itself apart before it got around to doing anything particularly interesting.
    Multiverse theories usually don't assume that all the universes have existed in series (certainly the ones Hawking talks about don't). They exist in parallel (if the theory is correct), and in some versions, they spring out of one another. Some theories state that the universe actually isn't stable at all, only a tiny amount of universes survive each moment, but since people can only exist in the ones that survive, to us it looks stable (since our universe seems never to collapse).

    Evolutionary theory depends on the procreation of the species in question. Even with theories of serial universes, we know that at some point 14 billion years ago, all the matter in the universe was in more or less the same place. Any being that could have any impact on anything on the scale of our earth or its inhabitants would be torn to shreds (by which I mean they would be torn apart to the point where the subatomic particles that build up most things we know about stop making sense, and that would apply for matter as well as any other interesting forms of energy).

    Big bangs and evolution isn't actually that complicated as far as the universe is concerned. It takes a lot for us humans to understand it (of course, we understand very little of it), but it doesn't require a grand design just to work (as best we know).
     
  11. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,134
    Likes Received:
    598
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The only way to demonstrate the odds would be either finding one alternative genetic line on Earth in some life form or find life on other planets with alternative genetic development. If we found life on say Mars and one of the moons with water with some form of life it would seriously broaden the chance of life forming to likely expected under conditions at least for carbon based life. But if so then a deity being needed plummets since it would hardly be special to have life form and develop since it would reinforce Evolutionary Theory as demonstrated by science.

    As for extra dimensions and the rest until proven its then effectively not true, and shouldn't be considered by anyone in debating this topic.
     
  12. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,491
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    My belief is that G-d evolved over eternity in the past......
    that G-d planned and choreographed nearly an infinite number of Big Bang type events....
    our latest one of 13.72 billion years or so ago was the one that went down into the lowest
    energy level space - time dimension ever created.....

    I believe in all kinds of life forms being on the earth before Adam and Eve....
    When Lucifer led a third of the angels in a revolt.....
    most of the earth was devastated and
    most life on earth was wiped out.....
    some of those life forms could well have been very humanoid......

    I do believe in Adam and Eve being put on a fixed up earth about 6000 years or so ago....
     
  13. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,488
    Likes Received:
    16,351
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well, there certainly is no evidence of anything in your first paragraph. So, that is pure, raw belief.

    And, there is no evidence of the second or third paragraphs. So, those are raw belief, too.

    For those who accept science, it seems quite clear that there were fully modern humans with our range of thought, behavior, appearance, etc., on earth more than 40,000 years ago.

    Evolution didn't stop then - in fact, it continues today. Over the last 20,000 years we've added stuff like blue eyes and the ability for adults to digest milk. During that period we also lost a volume of brains about the size of a tennis ball - but, our brains probably got more complex, meaning that we have smaller brains that are likely to be more capable and require less energy.

    Of course, we could be adding a bunch of other features, too. It's hard to tell, because evolution takes a lot of generations and carefully written records of human morphology and capability haven't been around that long.
     
  14. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,491
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    If you pick up
    "Stephen Hawking's Universe" and skip over to chapter 13,
    entitled The Anthropic Principle,
    you will read about Stephen Hawking Ph. D's ideas on
    an infinite number of Big Bang type events
    preceding our latest Big Bang.

    This is called the Cyclic Model of the Universe.

    Dr. Hawking explained an Atheistic version of this.....
    but this idea can easily be re written for people with an open mind.....

    Near death experiencer Mellen Benedict was shown a version of the Cyclic Model of the
    Universe that was not at all Atheistic in flavor.


    http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/experiences/mellen-thomas-benedict.html#a05


     
  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,488
    Likes Received:
    16,351
    Trophy Points:
    113
    These ideas from Hawking are obviously interesting, but they aren't science.

    The way you can tell is that we don't have the capability of testing them.

    It's somewhat like "string theory" in that respect. Cool ideas, made consistent with known science, but outside of scientific method.

    I don't mean to downplay the thought in these areas. Advanced thinkers come up with these ideas, and that gives science some ideas on where we might do some more investigation. For example, if there are multiple universes (the bubble bath model) there are those who think there would be certain patterns we could detect in astronomy caused by universes overlapping or hitting each other. Great. Let's go look! Who knows what we might fine.


    I'm absolutely and totally unimpressed by "near death experiences". In fact, I could not possibly be less interested.

    When the brain gets deprived and starts winding down it is pretty much certain that all sorts of weirdness is going to happen. It really isn't all that different from ingesting hallucinogens. The only real difference is that a human is likely to recover from hallucinogens, while someone near death is likely to die.

    And, who can possibly refute the claims being made by these guys who claim to have this experience? Are you seriously asking me to "believe" what they say just because they almost died??? Sorry. No. In fact, Hell no.
     
  16. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,491
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Actually.... they can test the out of the body part of near death experiences.....
    a research team has been distributing unusual objects in impossible to view
    places in operating rooms all over several hospitals in England......

    after somebody is revived from a brush with death they are being asked by a
    researcher if they saw anything unusual while in the out of the body state.....

    Also.....
    near death experiences can be replicated under nearly laboratory conditions in extreme gravity
    devices.....


    http://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers/extreme-gravity.html

    The Trigger of Extreme Gravity:
    Dr. James Winnery's NDE Research



     
  17. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,491
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Here is a quotation from the section......
    Veridical OBE's

    http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=s0101-60832013000500005&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

    Near-death experiences in cardiac arrest: implications for the concept of non-local mind



     
  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,488
    Likes Received:
    16,351
    Trophy Points:
    113
    lol - I'm not disputing that people can almost die!!

    People can certainly do that.

    And, the thing in England is hilarious!
     
  19. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,491
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes... the fact that the guy who had had a brush with death
    seemed to know with certainty which nurse knew where his false teeth would be
    was really funny........
    but it is details like this that have taken many dozens of rather
    extreme skeptics and convinced them to begin to take this phenomena seriously.

    The majority of the most famous researchers of Out Of Body Experiences and/ or
    Near Death Experiences.....
    were once extremely skeptical that something like this could be possible.

    Howard Storm Ph. D. could not believe it when he found that his
    consciousness was somehow.... outside of his body......
    that did not seem possible to him.......

    ..... and what he wrote about what he was shown about a possible future
    was brilliant...... .and amazingly well in line with Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the minor prophets of the Jewish scriptures.


    http://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/howard-storm.html#a04
     
  20. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,491
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I personally am wide open to the possibility that
    in comparison to our ancestors of 2000 - 5000 years ago we are
    weak mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually.

    Tradition has it that some of Alexander the Great's soldiers were so astonishingly
    tough that they could take out the most well equipped ninjas of our time period......
    I believe that they were using a higher percentage of their mental and physical capabilities.......

    .... Scholars from centuries and millennia in the past seemed to be capable of astonishing feats of memory that only a
    handful of people in our time period can seem to be able to do.
     
  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,488
    Likes Received:
    16,351
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I don't see evidence of that.

    Obviously, our standard of living in the US precludes us ever seeing the kind of "astonishing feats" that some humans are capable of doing.

    And, we have kids today who have successfully memorized the entire Qur'an, can spell like human dictionaries, etc.
     
  22. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,491
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I am hopeful that advances in nutrition will soon cause
    a significant improvement in the combination of health plus longevity,
    especially for seniors.

    A century or so from now humans may again be capable of what they once could
    easily do.




    http://www.politicalforum.com/health-care/453165-why-would-dr-ben-carson-make-such-claims.html

    Why would Dr. Ben Carson make such claims?
     
  23. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,491
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The Cyclic Model would add infinite time to the formula which would increase the probability of intelligence evolving in fundamental energy by a nearly infinite factor.....
     
  24. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    55,518
    Likes Received:
    27,044
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    As if "fundamental energy" meant anything.
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  25. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,491
    Likes Received:
    2,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Everything here in four dimensional space - time can be divided up into four forces, electromagnetism, gravity, weak and strong nuclear force..... but fundamental energy seems to have only two forms, Super Strings and Super Waves or.... as Dr. Chaim Tejman terms it.... Super Energetic Matter.

    I suspect that both Super Strings as well as Super Waves could each be truly fundamental energies. Did they have to come together though for intelligence and creativity to begin?


     

Share This Page