Americans feel we are going in the wrong direction, why?

The major blockage (imho) has been the bi-partisan immigration reform bill, that would inforce e-verify, modify our visa programs (which is how almost half have come to stay illegally), and has 10s of billions for southern border security improvement.

That passed the Senate and though it had a House majority whip count, it was blocked for purely partisan reasons.

Definitely the wrong direction??

 

You mean the Gang of 8 Bill. I was against it, but then Sen. Rubio(R-Florida) had an excellent campaign IMO and he convinced me about the Gang of 8. Is it perfect? No, but it's the most reasonable bill that could be designed to resolve the immigration issue fairly for almost everyone involved.

 

Absolutely because it offers amnesty and a path to citizenship for illegals. An honest Senate would never have passed it, good thing the House has enough honest people to stop it.

 

False. They don't represent the population when all they do is try to cause the president to fail or when they block the bi-partisan immigration bill when it would have passed the House, or when they attempt to kill Obamacare when they have no alternative plan concerning what America's families should do, etc.

And, False on the leadership thing, too, obviously. It is the executive branch that sets foreign policy and promotes policy at home. That is massive leadership responsibility.

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"Things done"??? What "things" are you talking about?

I'm presuming you are aware that the US president has large leadership responsibility, but can't override the will of congress - which is grounds for impeachment.

 

I agree. It's not the bill I wanted, but I'm not the only US citizen, it appears.

We would be WAY way ahead of where we are today if the bill had passed.

Back when it was an issue Rubio was a bit of a mystery as he seemed to be on both sides of this bill.

My understanding is that he's gone Progressive on this issue in his Senate campaign.

 

There is no other plan proposed for dealing with the 11M who are here.

And, the citizenship complaint is nonsense. First, the path to citizenship would require significant documentation, payments, and a process that Rubio and others say would take 12 years at a minimum. Beyond that, it appears that most aren't interested in even trying that approach. They came here to work and raise American families - they don't have time for courts and paperwork.

If you think that is partisan, it can only be because you think Republicans can't appeal to Hispanics in 12 years!!! If that's true, the GOP is dead, regardless. And, there is no reason outside of bigotry that it has to be true. These people tend to be quite conservative Catholics.

Why are you paranoid about that?

Elected Democrats and Republicans alike have backed making it legal for these people to work and live here. We need them. We have no other acceptable direction. Even Trump knows that.

 

Exactly right. The Dems need to face the fact that their 2010 loss of the House and 2014 loss of the Senate did not happen without reason. We elect people to represent us; if they fail to do so, we elect others. That's the way it works, and that's the way it should work.

I had hoped President Obama would govern more effectively, and be willing to reach across the political divide. Unfortunately, he has turned out to be one of the most divisive presidents we've had in a long time.

Exactly my point. Don't ask for everybody to join hands and sing Kumbaya as we walk off a cliff together. That's just dumb.

There are reasonable members of both parties, those who are willing to work together for the greater good. Unfortunately, those people are seldom rewarded for what they do. And you're absolutely right: our system rewards those who accuse those in the opposite party of being obstructionist in their dealings. But as I've said, very few are willing to acknowledge that their ideas of how things should be are usually shared by no more than half the American population. Doesn't matter what position we're talking about, doesn't matter which party we're talking about. Can we find leaders willing to persuade or change? Folks who can work with those who disagree with them? Folks willing to prioritize the issues, rather than treat everything as equally important? I hope so.

 

I thought he made perfect sense to me. He advocated for the fact that the only way you're going to get confidence on the border, is to secure it first and THEN you can tackle the issue of what to do with a path to citizenship. I'm literally paraphrasing him. No one seemed to be listening, but I was awe-inspired by Rubio. Like I once was with President Obama in 2008.

I'm telling you, that man has presidential stuff and we might just see it in 2020 when there's no Trump to distract messages.

 

Wrong. There are several proposals, they just get shelved by the "progressives" of the R & D parties.

Its easy to deal with the illegals. End sanctuary cities, stop welfare (free health care, housing, schooling, etc) for illegals, and start inspecting employers who hire illegals (every community knows who those employers are) and fine them $1,000 per infraction. Most of the illegals will self-deport. Then we can deal with the few remaining who have real roots in the USA and truly want to stay.

That proposal has been around for years. Trump has proposed something similar.

LOL, that's total BS. The "progressives" want all the illegals to gain citizenship so they can bias the electorate, its the progs ticket to a lock on power for decades. They look at the result on the Reagan 1986 amnesty, that's why the SW states are now either voting "progressive" or tending that way.

The "gang of 8" plan was a scam. The progs will just grant amnesty and citizenship. They don't even vet people coming from Syria, they don't want any restrictions on voting, they won't care about any paperwork or back taxes when giving citizenship.

So you play the "race" card - which means you are desperate and have no argument. Don't be a tool of the proggies. Use your brain and think for yourself.

 

The problem is there's a bunch of dummies that don't know who to blame. In spite of it being right in their noses.
You say progressives. Yet the immigration policy has been pretty much unchanged for near 40 yrs. How many non progressives have been prez or had control of congress in those 40 yrs?

The obamacare system, is the system the republicans put together in the 1990s.

The elite's of DC have the sheeple fooled. They get dummies to point fingers, meanwhile, behind the curtain, they run things as the elites want. And the WS and bankers give the marching orders.

 

The number of undocumented aliens in the US has not changed for more than 5 years.

That is the primary purpose of border security as it applies to immigration.

Waiting more years before we address the problem of 11m who are here is nonsense. There is no logical justification.

 

You're not going to get the votes, the other way around. If you try to embrace a 'path to citizenship'(a liberal one), the conservatives will balk and even most Americans who do support a path, will balk. Because said immigrants would be getting 'in front of the line' of those who did it the right way.

You have to show we have a secure system, before we can proceed with the rest. He's right on this.

 

There is no immigration "line".

We have a secure system, as demonstrated by the fact that for 5 years the number of undocumented aliens has not increased.

I have no idea of what you mean by a LIBERAL path to citizenshjp. The path in the bi-partisan bill requires documentation, employment, back tax assessments, and a minimum of 13 years (according to Rubio). Is that liberal?

 

My point exactly. Along with health care, illegal immigration is a very serious problem. We have an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in our country. If anyone thinks we will be able to solve these problems with a divided federal government, you are delusional. Anyone voting a split ticket; anyone hoping for a disunited Washington; anyone voting for a third party; is in favor of these problems persisting for years. Clearly that doesn't make sense.

 

Please cite one of these shelved "plans" you say exist. I want to read it.

The problem with your partisan idea of undocumented aliens voting for Dems is that the process agreed upon would require more than a decade and would require extensive work by the applicant. Rubio states that few would ever try this path, as most are too busy working for low wages to hire lawyers and collect documentation.

It's just stupid to think that "progressives" will counter the will of congress on an issue such as what is required for citizenship. That would be an impeachable offense. You're trying to use your own paranoia as an actual justification for making the wrong choice on this.

Hispanics are voting against Republicans because Republicans call them rapists, "Bad Hombres", murderers (in political campaign advertisements), etc. - besides ignoring their issues, disparaging women, and the rest.



YOU tried to play the race card, not me. My position is that race should have nothing at all to do with it.

Our system already has a solution for 11m people for whom it is illegal to work, and thus pay their own way.

We have free market capitalism. That's all we need. The bi-partisan immigration bill includes a long and arduous path to citizenship that Republicans agreed to, as their corporations got higher numbers of legal immigrants who have skills those corporations are having a hard time finding here.

 

You are ignoring our stagnant economy, the number one issue with voters, anemic pay and jobs. Clearly, the federal government needs to do something to stimulate the economy. This will require a united front because the liberal plan and the conservative plan are mutually exclusive. A divided government will go nowhere on the economy. If you are even thinking of a split ticket or voting for a third party, you are voting for another four years of a stagnant economy. Is that what you want?

 

I 100% totally disagree.

The bi-partisan congressional committee on immigration reform came up with the bill that passed the Senate and would have passed the House had Boehner allowed it to come to a vote. It included billions for the border, changes to our visa system (since that is how almost 50% have come to stay), job protection and policing and a solution for those who are here. During that time, we stopped the increase in our undocumented alien population - the MOST that a border solution could accomplish in terms of increase of those who stay without our permission.


The absolutist partisanship we've seen throughout the period of Republican dominance in the Senate and House and Republican behavior before that (including the declaration that the failure of the US president is the top priority of the Republicans in the Senate and the House) are NOT a reason to give more power to Republicans.

That problem is a separate problem, and that kind of absolutism, refusal to negotiate/compromise, targeting of our executive to the detriment of all progress, must be defeated - regardless of immigration or anything else.

 

Immigration policy has been unchanged for forty years and the baleful effects are starting to show up.

Your last paragraph is certainly correct. Wall St. and the bankers like Progressive policies, though. The 1% would like nothing more than to offload health care costs from corporations onto the government. Lax immigration enforcement is good for the corporations, too.

 

I'm not so sure about that. Corporations are mostly looking for skilled positions, and we provide a path for them to come. The only real issue is that they would like that number to be larger. Those who find their way here without permission don't have valued university degrees, and corporations aren't interested in that.

The main thing Wall Street wants is dependability. They can deal with most policy. The problem for them comes when corporations can't dependably make investments in the future. So today for example the consistency and quality of Clinton's focus on policy is far more interesting than the weak, undefined and flip flopping ideas Trump has to offer.

As for health care, every other industrialized country distributes publicly funded health care. Thus citizens tend to pay co-pays designed to do more than limit overuse. The result is that the total expenditure on health care is lower, and that is a major reduction for most of their citizens, leaving them with a larger percent of their income.

 

Start with this -
http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-acti...ays-getting-rid-of-illegals-a-us-jobs-program
http://politicalcorrection.org/blog/201109080006

The problem is that the Democrat party (totally controlled by "progressives") and the Republican leadership (who are "progressives") want illegals, want amnesty, and want to give them citizenship. They stifle any attempt by conservatives to do the items I outlined previously.

This is not new, its been a big item in news for 6 years. The Republicans in the 2014 election promised to enact the items I outlined if they won the Senate, conservatives turned out and the R's won the Senate, and the R leadership immediately reneged on their promises - and that's what finally triggered the revolt in the R party.

Oh, please, join the real world.

And the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (the Reagan amnesty) required the border to be secured and various measures enacted to stop illegals from entering the country. The 1986 Act was supposed to be the end of the illegal immigration problem. Not one of those border security measures was enacted.

So your claim that Congress and the president will follow the law of the Gang of 8 legislation is a fantasy.

obama & Congress dont even follow the existing immigration law. Sanctuary cities are breaking the law, refusal to cooperate with federal immigration officers is breaking the law, obama "interprets" the immigration law so he can keep illegals in the country, any state or county that tries to enforce existing immigration law finds themselves being sued by the feds.

BS. After the Reagan amnesty all those illegals who gained citizenship voted overwhelmingly Democrat. Why do you think the SW is now voting prog.


Look at Arizona, it used to be extremely conservative, it was the home state of Barry Goldwater (ever heard of him?) and was the birthplace of todays conservative and libertarian base. Now its almost prog.

California used to be reliably Republican, it was the home state of Ronald Reagan (ever heard of him?). Now its a loony bin.

And New Mexico & Colorado.

All due to the Reagan amnesty and the influx of people (the original illegals, plus their families, etc) who want big govt welfare.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/reagan-amnesty-haunts-immigration-action

http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/...ntally-reveals-democrats-really-want-amnesty/

How about

Sound familiar? You stated that any dissent to your opinion is due to bigotry. I gave you reasons having nothing to do with bigotry.

 

Agribusiness likes unskilled labor, as does the construction business. Factories are full of semi-skilled labor. If they can drive the cost of labor down enough, manufacturing will return from China to the US where the elite have more political leverage.

And Hillary is certainly the friend of the 1%.

 

Those aren't plans. They are merely statements that if undocumented aliens were to leave it would be good. It doesn't address ANY of the issues surrounding what would actually be done and how those tactics would deal with constitutionality, humanitarian issues, methodologies, political blow-back from this essentially being a war on Hispanics, etc.

Reagan went on a severe austerity bender, with the result being that the kind of money required for any significant border work was simply not available. You can't expect more border work at the cost of the programs Reagan was cutting.

Empty nonsense. Obama has stopped the increase in undocumented aliens for more than half a decade and counting. Focusing on cases of offenders, recent border crossers, etc., is a totally valid approach to enforcement. Our police forces ALL do the same. That is, they have priorities and limited funds.

The amnesty portion of the bi-partisan bill that had Republican support would require at least 13 years of effort on the part of the alien in order to be considered for citizenship. Rubio says most would not try - they just don't have the time or money to spend on that attempt.

More importantly, if the GOP can't appeal to a bunch of mostly Catholic workers in the next 13 years (because they have more skin pigment??), the Republican party is DEAD anyway.

So, what the heck are YOU worried about?

 

That direction is consistent with leaving the 11 or 12 million undocumented aliens outside the law, where they have no options, aren't represented, and are forced to accept low pay and horrendously poor treatment.

If we make it legal for these people to work and pay their own way, then free market enterprise will cause wages to go up, since they will be competing on an even footing with long term citizen labor instead of undercutting wages.

So, you're wrong about Clinton. She's not interested in suppressing wages by allowing more undocumented labor. She is in favor of the free enterprise capitalism solution that will raise wages, allow these people to start new businesses, and employ more people, etc.

 

By 'Liberal' path to citizenship, I mean Amnesty. Anything that looks remotely like that, will not be endorsed by even a center-left Congress or the American People. And just because there hasn't been an increase in the number of undocumented aliens, is not the same thing as a secure border.

Once the government can demonstrate and say to the public 'we've got this'. We can reform the rest. No one is going to revisit 1985 when Reagan gave a blank check to Democrats, only for Democrats not to deliver.

 

The US is going in the wrong direction. Here are four reasons of many.

1. Personal and corporate taxes are too high. The collectivists do everything they can
to make a chasm between the poor and anyone that has more money than them. A country
cannot be taxed into prosperity. In fact, taxes always slow the economy. Lower taxes make
the economy better for everybody. You can't take money out of an economy and expect it
to grow.

2. Illegal immigration. This is self explanatory. It's harming the economy and we can't afford
to take care of them.

3. World affairs. The current administration has ruined out status in the world. It's become
a laughing stock thanks to the policies that have been made. The worst aiding our enemies,
i.e. Iran and Syria while disrespecting our long standing allies, England and Israel.

4. The government is too big. It needs to be whittled down. Huge cuts or elimination need to
be given to welfare and unnecessary agencies such as the nea, nsa, epa, fda, tsa and others.