Part 36 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Mitt Ryan, Feb 7, 2017.

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  1. Johnny Brady

    Johnny Brady New Member

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    But mate, if the Old T prophets weren't foretelling Jesus, who do you think they were speaking of, mickey mouse?..:)

    OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS FORETOLD JESUS'S ARRIVAL
    The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem - fulfilled
    "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." (Micah 5:2)

    The Messiah would enter Jerusalem on a donkey - fulfilled
    "Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey" (Zech 9:9)

    The Messiah would be silent before His accusers - fulfilled
    "He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth" (Isaiah 53:7).

    The Messiah would be flogged and spit on - fulfilled
    "I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard, I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting" (Isaiah 50:6)

    The Messiah would suffer nails and spearthrust - fulfilled
    ".. he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5)

    The Messiah would be crucified with thieves - fulfilled
    "..he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors" (Isaiah 53:12)

    The betrayal money would be thrown in the temple for a potters field - fulfilled
    "Throw it to the potter- the handsome price at which they priced me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter" (Zech 11:13)


    And of course when Jesus came he himself confirmed he was the Messiah -
    "The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
    Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he." (John 4:25/26)
     
  2. Johnny Brady

    Johnny Brady New Member

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    Who said the mob was led by snooty priests?
     
  3. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Zechariah 9:9 Makes no sense in the context of the chapter, but of course you ignore that. I could could turn Satan into God and vice versa by the methods Christianity uses.
    Zechariah 11:13 completely different situation. Did Jesus cut aside his other staff and break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. Judah and Israel were in the past 600-700 years. This wasn't betrayal money, Neither was Jeremiah's. And the '30 pieces of silver' may not have actually been 30 pieces of silver in Zechariahs time. The term often signified 'a trifle amount'. It's just a term borrowed from the OT
    Isaiah - that old chestnut that I said before. Isaiah has 65 Chapters talking about god's servant Israel/Jacob and the travail they are going to go through (similar to Jeremiah) and he suddenly says 'you know what, I'll write a chapter about another man who will have to suffer and die, before I carry on with my servant Israel.' So he puts in a chapter 53.

    Odd. In my Bible Jesus conversed with the accusers.

    Nothing about swords of spears, 'crushed?' This could equally apply to the many prophets of the past, and those Jesus was 'going to send'. (Matthew 23)

    Until Christianity came along the Hebrew Tanakh and Jewish history was understood quite well by the Jews. Then Christianity came along and interpreted the Jewish scriptures for themselves. Then Mohammed did the same, the JW's, the Mormons. I bet Zoroaster/Zarathustra would be surprised how the Jews interpreted some of his teaching in Babylonia and how it filered down to other religions.

    Jesus confirmed he was an anointed one.

    You continually ignore the fact that his disciples didn't really understand what Jesus meant. They questioned him about his plans, tried to persuade him against them quite simply because this wasn't the Jewish belief - vicarious sacrifice. They were responsible for their own sins. If you believe the Bible they were even unsure of things after his death.

    http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Isaiah_53_The_Suffering_Servant.html
    n the days of Jesus, nobody ever understood Isaiah 53 to be predic
    ting the death of the Messiah. When Jesus said, "I am going to Jerusalem where I will suffer and die," the Apostle Peter did not relate this in any way to the suffering described in Isaiah 53. Rather, Peter rebuked Jesus, saying, "Be it far from you Lord, this shall not be unto you." In other words, "God forbid – that cannot happen to you!" Peter never expected the Messiah to be tortured and killed (see Matthew 16:21-22).
    Interestingly, the 20th century Christian New English Bible – Oxford Study Edition (annotation on Isaiah 52:13-53:12) clearly identifies the Suffering Servant as the nation of Israel which “has suffered as a humiliated individual."
    If the context of Isaiah 53 so clearly refers to the Jewish people, how could so many Christian leaders have mistranslated the Bible? History shows that – for whatever motivation – many did so knowingly:
    Lucius Coelius Firmianes Lactantius, 3rd century Church leader: "Among those who seek power and gain from their religion, there will never be wanting an inclination to forge and lie for it."

    St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire. Our forefathers and doctors have often said not what they thought, but what circumstances and necessity dictated."

    Dr. Herbert Marsh, 19th century English Bishop: "It is a certain fact that several readings in our common printed text are nothing more than alterations made by Origen..."
    Walter Brueggemann Ph.D., an ordained minister and author of 60 books on the Bible, writes: "[A]lthough it is clear that this poetry does not have Jesus in any first instance on its horizon, it is equally clear that the church, from the outset, has found the poetry a poignant and generative way to consider Jesus, wherein humiliation equals crucifixion and exaltation equals resurrection and ascension."


    I came across something similar to the above some years ago somewhere when studying the OT. It added flesh to the basic facts I had already in mind.

    You won't believe it but it will give you some understanding of the Jewish thinking of their Messianic Age. And of the Jewish way of writing in poetry and allegories.
     
  4. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Many of the "prophecies" could apply to any convict. Persecution of criminals often have common elements.

    The quote from Isaiah 53 says nothing about crucifixion nor of thieves ?? That someone is martyred for some transgression along with other transgressors applies to every martyr.

    Jesus was not silent at his trial.

    The Messianic Tradition was going hot and heavy in the first century - there were messiah's before and after Jesus. Each knew that riding on a donkey was part of the ritual ... hence why people who thought Jesus was the messiah would have him ride on a donkey. Nothing prophetic about self fulfilling prophecy.

    I noticed you left out some of the prophecies that Jesus did not fulfill.

    Then of course there is the fact that the Jews (and it is their book of prophecies) do not recognize Jesus as the messiah (so we really do not have to go much further as obviously they have studied this to death).
     
  5. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Remember, that stuff is directly related to the biblical passages about the various genocides where the Israelites are directed to kill everyone except the virgins and to keep them for themselves. The virgins were baby girls and the Talmud believers adopted that practice because it was the "word of God". The same thing happens with muslims because Mohammed supposedly got his assorted rules from Allah. Once BS practices enter into society they are very hard to eradicate, especially if they supposedly come directly from the favorite deity.
     
  6. Johnny Brady

    Johnny Brady New Member

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    1- Although Jesus uttered a few brief words to Pilate and the snooty priests, we can see in the context of this verse that he didn't want to get into a longwinded boring conversation with boneheads-
    "And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing" (Matt 27:12)

    2- Whoa Jack, don't quote Bishops and Ministers to me, I've told you before that I've rejected organised religion and don't give a rat's ass what they say, even if you atheists do..;)
     
  7. Johnny Brady

    Johnny Brady New Member

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    Although he uttered a few brief words to Pilate and the snooty priests, we can see in the context of this verse that he didn't want to get into a longwinded boring debate with boneheads..:)
    "And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing" (Matt 27:12)
     
  8. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    I wonder who all of those people were who witnessed all of those private conversations throughout the Bible? Oh, I know! They were simply the writers who made up the stories out of their imaginations!!
     
  9. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He did speak to Pilate as per scripture and he must have answered numerous questions that are not in scripture (including denial that he was the Son of God, Messiah- intermediary between man and God).

    The Romans were very litigious and took claims of God-hood of any sort very seriously. Caesar was "Pontifex Maximus" God's emissary on earth. For a citizen to also make such a claim would be to usurp Caesar. Given the charges against Jesus - and the low tolerance Romans had for trouble makers- Pilate and Herod would have asked Jesus numerous questions in relation to blasphemy against Caesar. Not answering would only render a guilty verdict.

    This however was not the verdict . The verdict was not guilty which means Jesus answered the questions and his answer's satisfied Pilate and Herod that he was not claiming to be the Son of God, an emissary between man and God, or any other blasphemy against the divinity of Caesar.
     
  10. Johnny Brady

    Johnny Brady New Member

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    That's when the snooty priests stepped in and said to Pilate- "Whoa Jack, he said he was a king, and as that's treason against your Caesar, it'll look bad on your record if you let a traitor walk, and you'll end up slopping out the latrines in the Colosseum".
    So Pilate signed the death warant to cover his ass.
     
  11. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Reluctantly as Jesus had denied all the "Son of God" / Divine messenger allegations against him.
     
  12. PeoplesRepublicOfMe

    PeoplesRepublicOfMe New Member

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    In Genesis 4:16
    I have frequently pondered who is this "wife," where is this land, and who named it "Nod?" I have heard many speculate an answer, claiming Cain married a sister; however, I can't find any scripture to verify such a speculation. In Genesis 1:27 it says
    Then later in Genesis 2:7 it says
    Is it possible these are linear and two separate creations, and there were in fact humans before Adam? At least in my mind, this could account for Cain moving to a named land and taking a wife.
     
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  13. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

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    To you (an unbeliever) it's a myth but to believers (Christians) it truly happened. All the stories of the Bible truly happened. The Bible is not mythology but rather it's essentially an historical document/accounts of true events that happened in past ancient history.

    The Bible looks like one book but it's actually a collection of many books, sixty-six of them rolled into one. God's uses as many as forty authors over a time period of many centuries (approx. 1600 yrs) to write these sixty-six books of the Bible. So this makes each book unique, and they all contribute to God's life changing message, and the message that God makes vividly clear is that He loves all of us and has a plan to save us from the destructive power of sin. In other words God's plan is for us to live with Him in heaven.

    But sadly not everyone will be with Him in heaven. The ones who will not be with Him, who will be separated from Him for all eternity, made the choice on their own free will to not to be with Him in heaven, these people are the unbelievers....all the non-Christians of the world.

    We read in Scripture:

    The Narrow Gate

    Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ said, "You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it." ---Matthew 7:13-14 NLT

    Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ said, "For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life." ---John 3:16 NLT

    But anyway let me shed some light here to make the case that the Bible is not mythology. I will turn it over to my favorite Christian website to explain it thoroughly below. I wholeheartedly agree with what they have to say because they always keep in line with what is written in the Scriptures of the Holy Bible. So without further ado, and for your reading pleasure:

    Question: "How do I know the Bible is not just mythology?"

    Answer: That the Bible originated in the mind of God makes it not only unique among all books, it is unique among all the treasures on earth. President Abraham Lincoln appropriately referred to the Bible as “the best gift God has given to man.” Indeed it is. It reveals God’s eternal plan of redeeming the fallen human race. Yet even though billions of copies of it have been distributed throughout the world, many continue to question its truth. Is the Bible a book of mythology, or is it the true, inspired Word of God? This question is of the greatest importance to every person, whether they know it or not.

    Many religious texts claim to convey a divine message. The Bible, however, stands alone in that God left absolutely no room for doubt as to whether or not this is His written Word. If anyone undertakes an honest effort to examine the facts, he will find the Bible most assuredly has God’s signature all through it. The very same mouth that spoke all of creation into existence also gave us the Bible.

    Unlike mythology, the Bible has a historical framework. Its characters are real people living in verifiable locations during historical events. The Bible mentions Nebuchadnezzar, Sennacherib, Cyrus, Herod, Felix, Pilate, and many other historical figures. Its history coincides with that of many nations, including the Egyptian, Hittite, Persian, Babylonian, and Roman empires. The events of the Bible take place in geographical areas such as Canaan, Syria, Egypt, Mesopotamia, and others. All this certifiable detail refutes the idea that the Bible is mere mythology.

    Unlike mythology, the Bible has many confirmations in sciences such as biology, geology, astronomy, and archaeology. The field of biblical archaeology has absolutely exploded in the last century and a half, during which time hundreds of thousands of artifacts have been discovered. Just one example: at one time, skeptics used the Bible’s references to the Hittite civilization as “proof” that the Bible was a myth. There was never any such people as the “Hittites,” according to the science of the day. However, in 1876, the first of a series of discoveries was made, and now the existence of the ancient Hittite civilization is well documented. Archaeology continues to bolster the Bible’s historicity. As Dr. Henry M. Morris has remarked, “There exists today not one unquestionable find of archaeology that proves the Bible to be in error at any point.”

    Unlike mythology, the Bible is written as history. Luke wrote his Gospel as “an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us . . . just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses.” Luke claims that he had “carefully investigated everything from the beginning” and so wrote “an orderly account . . . so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught” (see Luke 1:1-4). Did Luke include miracles in his account? Yes, many of them. But they were miracles verified by eyewitnesses. Two thousand years later, a skeptic might call Luke’s account a “myth,” but the burden of proof rests with the skeptic. The account itself is a carefully investigated historical document.

    Unlike mythology, the Bible contains an astounding number of fulfilled prophecies. Myths do not bother with prophecy, but fully one third of the Bible is prophecy. The Bible contains over 1,800 predictions concerning more than 700 separate subjects found in over 8,300 verses. The Old Testament contains more than 300 prophecies concerning Jesus Christ alone, many with amazing specificity. Numerous prophecies have already been fulfilled, and they have come to pass precisely as foretold. The mathematical odds of someone making this number of predictions and having every one of them come to pass are light-years beyond the realm of human possibility. These miraculous prophecies could only be accomplished with the supernatural guidance of Him who sees the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:9-10).

    Unlike mythology, the Bible has transformed a countless number of lives. Yet many people allow the views of others—who have never seriously studied the Bible—to shape their own opinions. Each of us needs study it for ourselves. Put it to the test. Live by the Bible’s precepts and experience for yourself the dynamic and transforming power of this amazing Book. Apply its teachings on forgiveness and see how it can mend a broken relationship. Apply its principles of stewardship and watch your financial situation improve. Apply its teaching on faith and feel a calming presence in your heart even as you navigate through a difficult trial in your life. The Bible works. There is a reason Christians in various countries around the world risk their lives daily to expose others to the life-giving truth of this remarkable Book.

    Ultimately, many who reject God and His revealed Word do so because of pride. They are so invested in their personal beliefs that they refuse to honestly weigh the evidence. To accept the Bible as true would require them to think seriously about God and their responsibility to Him. To accept the Bible as true might require a change of lifestyle. As Erwin Lutzer stated, “The truth is, few people have an open mind, especially about matters of religion. . . . Thus, perverted doctrines and prejudices are easily perpetuated from one generation to another.”

    Millions die every year having bet their eternal souls that the Bible is not true, hoping against hope that it is nothing but a book of mythology, and that God does not exist. It is a risky gamble, and the stakes are very high. We urge everyone to read the Bible with an open mind; let it speak for itself, and may you find that God’s Word is truth (John 17:17).

    https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-mythology.html
     
  14. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And thus do we see the reason these people are confronted by those who dwell in rational thought when they express said beliefs aggressively. They then feel attacked because their "God" apparently cannot defend itself.

    Onward Christian Soldier.
     
  15. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And promptly had the sign 'This is Jesus ,King of the Jews' written on the Cross and wouldn't alter it.

    And then went on to persecute the Jews..

    Rome didn't give a toss about some Jewish Preacher who did not threaten them with an army. Pilate simply wanted to keep the peace as was his duty as Prefect. There were several Kings in the Roman empire. As long as they ruled under Rome no-one cared. What the Romans did care about was the peace and stability of its Empire. And Jesus did not threaten that.
     
  16. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    If you read the story you will see that the Garden of Eden was down the road from Assyria, Ethiopia, Arabia, and Persia. The area was crawling with people. Later on the story has the king of Tyre kicking back in the Garden of Eden until he ticked off the Emperor (aka "God") and got deposed.

    The Adam character represents the progenitor of the Jews and the story ends with the last Adam, Jesus. It has nothing to do with Gentiles, except as victims to be slaughtered and enslaved.
     
  17. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    It's amazing that a deity who supposedly created the universe is incapable of defending himself against puny humans that he created.
     
  18. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The problem is that there are 3 stories. Matthew has the same story as Mark and Luke but makes it 2 possessed men. The stories are obviously 3 different accounts of the same supposed event. Mark and Luke place it in the land of the Gadarenes and Matthew in the land of the Gerasenes. Matthews problem is that the 'swine' would have had to run several miles to plunge into the lake. Gerasa, the city which controlled the land round it, was/is over twenty miles from the Sea of Galilee. Mark and Luke use Gadara. The city is several miles from the sea. One questions why the tombs should be so far from the city? In the mountains where burying must have been difficult? Why Jesus would have landed on such a deserted coast? And the coasts of Galilee are mountainous, but in the Gadarene area have a relatively low shore line. All-in-all the pigs must have been very agile before plunging in the sea.
     
  19. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    In one account the pigs would have had to run 35 miles to fall into the water and drown.
     
  20. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Have you never heard of the phrase 'Pigs might fly'. :wink:
     
  21. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Allow me to ask you the question for a third time:

    How do 8 people from Noah's Ark result in multiple empires all over the Earth each with multimillion populations in the span of just a few centuries?
     
  22. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    The tower of Babel story is only 130 years AFTER the so-called Global Flood.
     
  23. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    You just don't get it, do you?

    The aliens who populated the earth with humans by breeding with Neanderthals planted trillions of A/V recording devices all over the world. One hundred years after the Xifiction of JC they released recordings of all His meetings, public speeches and miracles to Matthew, Mark, Luke & John.
     
  24. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    "believers" and "(Christians)" are not necessarily the same. There are many Christians who do not take the Genesis account literally. The only Christians who take Genesis literally are Fundamentalists like yourself.

    Biblical scholars and historians have undertaken honest efforts to examine the facts. They find there is no basis to believe things like the Exodus. They find there is no basis to believe the Gospels were written by first hand eye witnesses. If what is written in the Bible came from the mouth of God, then God lied.

    Not only is The Flood uncertifiable, it is proved to be a myth by historians, geologists and the very existence of civilizations around the world.

    That nonsense is believed only by Biblical Fundamentalists.

    Peoplet who reject gods and religions do so because they overcame their childhood indoctrinations and replaced childish stories with facts.

    That's just another falsehood that you must convince yourself of. I spend absolutely no time hoping about silly superstitious beliefs.
     
  25. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    These epic fairy tales actually have a purpose but they are fiction. They aren't history or science, but teaching narratives.. We are no longer bronze age people who believe in demons... nor should we be superstitious.
     
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