Russia is the most aggressive country

Discussion in 'Russia & Eastern Europe' started by Alik Bahshi, Mar 14, 2017.

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  1. st256

    st256 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, my wife ask me to wash my car. :) But I'll answer you as soon as it's possible.
     
  2. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's fine, I'm picking up our Thai dinner shortly...
     
  3. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2017
  4. st256

    st256 Well-Known Member

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    Do you want to discuss about Crimea? Let it be.
    Crimea... The most beautiful place on Earth!
    [​IMG]
    As background music I recommed this treck...

    Crimea belonged to Neanderthals, Cro-Magnons, ancient Greeks, ancient Romans... Many centures it belonged to Russia and about 20 years belonged to Ukraina. You say, Russia had invised in Crimea. No. If say legally, Crimea had invised in Russia. And what happened?

    In 2014 in Ukraine a usual fascist coup had happened. What do I mean? I mean, that several dosens of thousent these guys

    [​IMG]

    came to the Ukrainian capital Kiev on the Maidan square and changed their government by this way:

    [​IMG]

    They didn't want an election, they wanted a coup. And USA said - do it! On a next photo Victoria Jane Nuland, the Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the United States Department of State supports rioters and gives them cookies on the Maidan square.

    [​IMG]

    But there is one legal moment. If you make a coup, then you cancel a constitution. If constitution is canceled, then you can leave this state, because it already is not a state. Therefore Crimea had done a referendum. 96% of Crimean had voted to leave Ukraine and return in Russia.
    Otherwise, if Hitler had occupied Australia then you are not supposed to resist it. You had to burn Jews as all correct German citizens did it. The law is a law.

    But there is one thing more that Crimean afraid too... As I wrote before, fascists like to burn people. And what they did after riot? Yes! Bingo!! They started to burn people!!! Below the video where Ukrainian fascists burn other Ukrainian. Several dozens, as they say. Look at this, lady, look at this carefully...

     
  5. Ninian

    Ninian Banned

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    That's not typical, that's a ley-motif of USA media.

    As for crimean situation - is is more complex, than usually presented. I would be glad to explain it - but if I will be listened to, and not dismissed as 'defender/troll/apologist/propagandist/whatever other label used as an exuse to not listen to people, even - especially - if they say something reasonable.
     
  6. Otern

    Otern Active Member

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    I'd love to hear it from a Russian.

    The way I see it, Russia had to take Crimea in 2014. Ukraine was in a very unstable position, the EU started to creep up on the Russians, and it looked like Russia might lose its base in Sevastopol, two years before the contract with Ukraine had to be renewed. (The deal between Russia and Ukraine for Russia's military presence in Crimea was reaching its end in 2016, so a solution to this was really important for both sides.)

    And then there's the whole thing about which country Crimea should belong to. The only reason why it belonged to Ukraine, was because of some at the time, purely symbolical land transferal of Crimea from Russia to Ukraine by Nikita Khrushchev. He was Ukrainian, and the Soviet Union had to do some efforts towards the Ukrainian people, due to Stalin's shenanigans. At the time, this was almost purely symbolical, since everyone would be Soviet Citizens. The problem started with the dissolution of the Soviet Union, when Crimea now was legally Ukrainian, but its population largely Russian.

    The whole deal about the invasion of Donbass is understandable too, but that's not to say it's excusable. Russia needed to control the northern water reservoirs, or Ukraine could under pressure from the EU, basically block off the water supply, making one of the best agricultural land in Europe turn into a desert, all in the name of sanctions. This effort has largely failed though, but Ukraine has not turned off the water anyway. If they do, we'll see an increase in fighting. But the best solution is probably for Ukraine and Russia to come to some sort of agreement. Russia could cancel Ukraine's debt, in exchange for Ukraine to not do any sanctions towards Crimea that would hurt its agriculture.

    The EU really should stay far away from the riots in the streets, but they just had to meddle, and this pressured the Russian government to act. And now there's a war going on, which neither the EU, nor Russia wanted.
     
  7. olegp

    olegp Member

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    on the contrary.
    unfortunately, Russia did not dare to the real war against Ukraine
     
  8. st256

    st256 Well-Known Member

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    Russians are smart enough not to fight in Ukraine.
     
  9. olegp

    olegp Member

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    Lenin and Trotsky gave Ukraine a lot of Russian territory in 1918. that should be fixed
     
  10. st256

    st256 Well-Known Member

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    The territory is not a problem. The problem is an Ukrainian mentality. They are not Russians. What do you offer doing for getting back this territory? Killing of all Ukrainian population? I think, it's better they would live in their Ukraine separately from Russia. And they would solve their problems independently.
     
  11. olegp

    olegp Member

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    in this 3 regions which Lenin and Trotsky gave Ukraine Ukrainian mentality. is in minority. They are almost Russians.They were Russians as well as population of Rostov or Kuban ever more before bolsheviks
     
  12. st256

    st256 Well-Known Member

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    Definitely no. We thought that they are Russian before Crimea reunion. Now Russians think that Ukrainian are absolutely different people. I would not like to sound what we think about our new citizens. Extra Ukrainian are redundant here. Believe me, it's a common opinion in Russia.
     
  13. Ninian

    Ninian Banned

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    It's a citizenship question. Nobody forces ukrainians to speak Russian 24/7, praise Pushkin over Shevchuk or kook borsch in different manner.

    Government of Ukraine did exactly this mistake - tried 'ukrainazing' the population of various cultures. Aside from russians and ukrainians there also live hungarians, poles, crimean tatars and others. On their, pretty much, native land. Land their fathers lived on... ...and basically, that's enough. If child born in a house that their parents own, grew up there, and lives there - it's their home. It's hardly matters, HOW many other people lived there 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 1000 years ago - that is THIS CHILD'S HOME.

    Government of Ukraine alienated ukrainian citizens from each other with it's politics, and then, when it had a coup going on - it's snapped. Basically, I hardly care, what explanation invented my government for acquisition of Crimea, but point being - it would've been impossible, if people didn't wanted that. WHY Crimean republic entered RF peacefully? WHY rebels arose in DONBASS against UKRAINE, not in Crimea or in Belgorod or Rostov? I will not be answering this for you - try getting familiar with the situation yourself.

    From political view it may look like a violent annexation, but I remind you, that such events don't happen out of the blue, and even a coup and riots in capital are not enough for country to start falling apart.
    In 1993 in Russian Federation happened a coup attempt, orchestrated by Congress of People's Deputies of Russia. 158 people died. 423 injured. Tanks were rolling on streets, the White House was bombed. Millenia old capital was echoing with gunshots - thing that didn't happened in city since not even WWII, but since the very war with Napoleon.
    [​IMG]

    ...yet! - we survived. Country survived. Federation didn't collapsed, did not fell apart, and still stands today. Because we didn't tried making a country of many various people - into a unitary state.
     
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  14. st256

    st256 Well-Known Member

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    Lady, if to be honest, I understood nothing :(
     
  15. olegp

    olegp Member

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    it is clear Russia has betrayed Russophile regions except Crimea and created difficulties for their
     
  16. st256

    st256 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe russophile regions betrayed Russia in 1991? Never did you think about it?
     
  17. Ninian

    Ninian Banned

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    Let's be objective - situation in Donbass is shιt. People, who eagerly dashed there to be killing each other, in their majority, already dead, and locals are exausted by the fighting. It must be stopped. By RF, or by Ukraine, it must be stopped. It barely matters at that point, who 'betrayed' who, point being - there is a humanitarian catastrophy and two bands of equally desperate and uncontrollable warmongering cυnts, subjugating innocent people to life in a warzone.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
  18. olegp

    olegp Member

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    no they did not do it and could not do it ever they would want or what do you mean?
     
  19. Otern

    Otern Active Member

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    What's your take on a possible solution for making it stop?

    It sounds like an awful situation for the people there. If Russia pulls out, and stops giving support to the seperatists, how would Ukraine, and ethnically Ukrainians treat the remaining Russians that didn't flee east?

    Ukraine on one hand, just lost part of their territory, and was basically invaded by their neighbor, Russians would surely be seen by a lot of the public as fifth columnists. But on the other hand the Russians that live there, have as you said, lived there for generations, and the whole Crimea deal, while not exactly solved in the most diplomatic way, probably should have gone to the Russian Federation, since the population there have shown a political will from the dissolution of USSR to distance themselves from the central government in Ukraine.

    Donbass will probably return to Ukraine control, but it's also understandable future Ukrainian politics will not really prioritize the well being of that region, being primarily populated by Russians. This might further increase ethnic hostility towards each other.

    I just wish the West would keep their political meddling far away when the protests started. But since the Russians were meddling, it was used as an excuse for us to meddle too. The historical and strategic importance of Ukraine, and especially Crimea was largely ignored here.

    So, now we've got trade sanctions on Russia, that's hurting our economy in the northern regions, and the relationship between Norway and Russia as a whole. And as a response, there's unknown drones flying over all of our military exercises now, probably Russian.

    That's one of the problems with the EU. They think trade will solve all problems in the world, and when they don't, sanctions will solve the rest. And of course that doesn't work either. Because the world is a lot more than markets.
     
  20. st256

    st256 Well-Known Member

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    Let's do not use this term.
    Could you say how to do it?
     
  21. st256

    st256 Well-Known Member

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  22. olegp

    olegp Member

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    I know but maybe in 1991, any region could emerge from Ukraine and you would have to accept it in Russia?
    . there was no good choice, was between bad-very bad ,
    the issue of the 1991 referendum(are you for the independence of Ukraine), as well as in the eyes of the Kravchuk had 2 alternatives only
    1 you, your city will be in the independent Ukraine
    2 you, your city will be dependent Ukraine as part of the sovok
    as well as in the eyes of Kravchuk was read - choose from these 2, but you, the losers, anyway you're in Ukraine, independent or dependent

    if leaders of south-east in 1990-91 hurry up before Gorby with the restoration of the DKR as a Republic, then south-east went to the collapse of USSR by own country
     
  23. Ninian

    Ninian Banned

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    Negotiations, agreement, and rigorous subjugation of any violators on both sides, with arrests and legal persecution. If, for example, organisers of coal blockade would've been thrown to jail by police, or army - maybe right now region would've been quiet, and Ukraine would've had a stable supply of coal coming in from ukrainian own facilities.
     
  24. Ninian

    Ninian Banned

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    Ah, a common mistake!
    First of all, Russia was not actually the equality of USSR, furthermore - it proclaimed it's sovereignity and priority of Federal law above Union law even before Ukraine:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decla..._Russian_Soviet_Federative_Socialist_Republic
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Парад_суверенитетов#.D0.A5.D1.80.D0.BE.D0.BD.D0.BE.D0.BB.D0.BE.D0.B3.D0.B8.D1.8F_.D0.BF.D1.80.D0.B8.D0.BD.D1.8F.D1.82.D0.B8.D1.8F_.D0.B4.D0.B5.D0.BA.D0.BB.D0.B0.D1.80.D0.B0.D1.86.D0.B8.D0.B9_.D0.BE_.D1.81.D1.83.D0.B2.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.B8.D1.82.D0.B5.D1.82.D0.B0.D1.85_.D1.81.D0.BE.D1.8E.D0.B7.D0.BD.D1.8B.D1.85_.D1.80.D0.B5.D1.81.D0.BF.D1.83.D0.B1.D0.BB.D0.B8.D0.BA

    Second, the USSR itself already was practically a powerless formality at the time when ukrainian referendum was performed, and was officially dissoluted in same month:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belavezha_Accords

    Ukraine, actually, de facto was not a part of RSFSR/RF since the February Revolution of 1917, BUT - in cultural meaning it had no strict border where ukrainian culture was ending, and russian beginning. So borders were more daministrative, than national. And as result - when in Ukraine started the process of ukrainization - it created tensions between people who were less... 'ukrainian'. Namely - ones in the east of state, that mainly spoke Russian and 'surjik' - a mixture of both Russian and Ukrainian languages.

    But before that, in 1991, nobody expected such probem to appear.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
  25. Ninian

    Ninian Banned

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    New set of agreements between Ukraine, separatists and RF, but this time - strictly followed, with no excuses for any patriots, volunteers and provocators who will be violating them, with immediate arrests and harsh sentences. Maybe revival of federalization project in Ukraine, that would've gave certain autonomy and cultural security to regions of country. And obviously a cooperation from all governments, ours included, with a combined investigation of war crimes and prosecution of those who comitted them across all countries involved. Maybe dual citizenships for people in Lugansk and Donetsk, if they will be interested in such option - or a temporary independence, followed in a year or two by a referendum to establish legal status of region - as independent republic, or subject whithin Ukraine or RF.

    Begotiations, and diplomacy. And a strict, rigorous following of the laws and agreements, established by involved sides. It may be harsh, but I think that it's better for overagressive warmongers to spend a few years in jails, than for innocent people continue suffering, until they either flee their homeland, or die from a misguided piece of ammo.
     

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