Trump's Travel Ban Gets Support From 13 States

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Merwen, Mar 29, 2017.

  1. VietVet

    VietVet Well-Known Member

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    You have an excellent, factual post, but it is in vain.
    THEY DON'T ACCEPT LOGIC.
    The con-man has his reasons....they just accept, not question.
    My favorite line is when they say "It is not a Muslim ban" - when that is EXACTLY what the con-man campaigned on.
    If we want to stop radicals - what about Saudi Arabia? Where did nearly all the 9/11 hijackers come from? SAUDI ARABIA.
    This is the con-man putting up a farce to appease his base.
    He has instilled fear, so he has to maintain the illusion of doing something to keep the rube's support.
     
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  2. Phyxius

    Phyxius Well-Known Member

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    The 9/11 hijackers (and Bin Laden) were from Saudi Arabia, the Boston bombers from
    Kyrgyzstan - neither of which are on the ban list. Mango Mussolini's travel ban would have done precisely dick to prevent 9/11 or the Boston bombing. Your argument doesn't pass the smell test.
     
  3. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    well for starters, you follow up your being wrong about russian interference thru an active measures program being "hillary's schtick", with an even more outrageous and wholly unsubstantiated definitive criminal accusation wrt to the Clinton Foundation. Your total lack of knowledge about the Foundation and its operations is merely another indication of the superficiality of partisanism.
     
  4. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    Well... I hate to keep having to do this...

    -----

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-09-30/handy-chart-countries-destroyed-hillary

    The Complete A To Z Of Nations Destroyed By Hillary Clinton's "Hubris"

    Tyler Durden's picture
    by Tyler Durden
    Sep 30, 2016 9:30 PM
    3.0K
    Submitted by Wayne Madsen via infowars.com

    In an email sent to his business partner and Democratic fundraiser Jeffrey Leeds, former Secretary of State Colin Powell wrote of Hillary Clinton, “Everything HRC touches she kind of screws up with hubris.”

    Clinton’s tenure as Secretary of State during Barack Obama’s first term was an unmitigated disaster for many nations around the world. Neither the Donald Trump campaign nor the corporate media have adequately described how a number of countries around the world suffered horribly from Mrs. Clinton’s foreign policy decisions.

    Millions of people were adversely harmed by Clinton’s misguided policies and her “pay-to-play” operations involving favors in return for donations to the Clinton Foundation and Clinton Global Initiative.

    Abkhazia

    Before Hillary: In 2009, more and more nations began recognizing the independence of this nation that broke away from Georgia and successfully repelled a U.S.-supported Georgian invasion in 2008.

    After Hillary: Clinton pressured Vanuatu and Tuvalu to break off diplomatic relations with Abkhazia in 2011. The State Department pressured the governments of India, Germany, and Spain to refuse to recognize the validity of Abkhazian passports and, in violation of the US-UN Treaty, refused to permit Abkhazian diplomats to visit UN headquarters in New York. The Clinton State Department also threatened San Marino, Belarus, Ecuador, Bolivia, Cuba, Somalia, Uzbekistan, and Peru with recriminations if they recognized Abkhazia. Georgia was connected to Clinton through the representation of Georgia in Washington by the Podesta Group, headed by Tony Podesta, the brother of Mrs. Clinton’s close friend and current campaign chairman John Podesta.

    Argentina
    Before Hillary: Under President Nestor Kirchner and his wife Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner, Argentina’s economy improved and the working class and students prospered.

    After Hillary: After former president Nestor Kirchner’s sudden death in 2010, the U.S. embassy in Buenos Aires became a nexus for anti-Kirchner activities, including the fomenting of political and labor protests against the government. Meanwhile, Clinton pressed Argentina hard on its debt obligations to the IMF, also crippling the economy.

    Bolivia
    Before Hillary: Bolivia’s progressive president Evo Morales, the country’s first indigenous Aymara leader, provided government support to the country’s coca farmers and miners. Morales also committed his government to environmental protection. He kept his country out of the Free Trade Area of the Americas and helped start the Peoples’ Trade Agreement with Venezuela and Cuba.

    After Hillary: Clinton permitted the U.S. embassy in La Paz to stir up separatist revolts in four mostly European-descent Bolivian provinces, as well as foment labor strikes among miners and other workers in the same model used in Venezuela.

    Brazil
    Before Hillary: Brazil’s progressive presidents, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva and Dilma Rousseff, ushered in a new era for the country, with workers’ and students' rights at the forefront and environmental protection and economic development for the poor major priorities.

    After Hillary: Clinton’s authorization of massive electronic spying from the US embassy in Brasilia and consulate general in Rio de Janeiro resulted in a “constitutional coup” against Rousseff and the Workers’ Party government, ushering in a right-wing, CIA-supported corrupt government.

    Central African Republic
    Before Hillary: Under President Francois Bozize, the CAR remained relatively calm under a peace agreement hammered out under the auspices of Muammar Qaddafi’s Libya.

    After Hillary: In 2012, Islamist terrorists of the Seleka movement and supported by Saudi Arabia conducted an uprising, massacring Christians and riving Bozize’s government from power. The CAR became a failed state under Clinton’s State Department.

    Ecuador
    Before Hillary: Ecuador began sharing its oil wealth with the people and the economy and the plight of the nation’s poor improved.

    After Hillary: Clinton authorized a 2010 National Police coup against President Rafael Correa. The economy soon plunged as labor disputes wracked the mining and oil sectors.

    Egypt
    Before Hillary: Under Hosni Mubarak, Egypt was a stable secular nation that suppressed jihadist politics in the mosques. The jihadist-oriented Muslim Brotherhood was kept at bay.

    After Hillary: After Clinton’s 2011 “Arab Spring” and the toppling of Mubarak, Egypt saw Mohamed Morsi of the Muslim Brotherhood elected president. Immediately, the secular country began a process of Islamization with Christian Copts experiencing repression and violence, including massacres. Morsi’s rule resulted in a military coup, thus ending Egypt’s previous moves toward democracy.

    Germany
    Before Hillary: The nation was a peaceful country where German culture, as well as religious freedom and women’s rights were guaranteed.

    After Hillary: Clinton’s “Arab Spring” eventually resulted in a flood of mainly Muslim refugees being welcomed into Germany from the Middle East, Africa, and South Asia. Today, Germany is wracked by Muslim refugee street crime, unsanitary and harmful public health habits of migrants, sexual assaults by migrant men of women and children, increased acts of terrorism, and a diminution of German culture and religious practices.

    Greece
    Before Hillary: Greece was a nation that saw government safety net social services extended to all in need. It also remained a top tourist destination for northern Europeans.

    After Hillary: The 2010 debt crisis emaciated the Greek economy and Clinton remained adamant that Greece comply with draconian economic measures dictated by Germany, the European Union, and the IMF/World Bank. Making matters worse, Clinton’s “Arab Spring” eventually resulted in a flood of mainly Muslim refugees being welcomed into first, the Greek isles, and then mainland Greece, from the Middle East, Africa, and South Asia. Today, Greece, especially the islands of Lesbos, Chios, Samos, Symi, Rhodes, Leros, and Kos, are wracked by Muslim refugee crime, unsanitary public health habits of migrants, sexual assaults by migrant men of women and children, acts of arson and vandalism, and a diminution of Greek culture and religious practices.

    Guatemala
    Before Hillary: Under President Alvaro Colom, the nation’s first populist progressive president, the poor received access to health, education, and social security.

    After Hillary: Clinton authorized the U.S. embassy in Guatemala to work against the 2011 election of president Colom’s wife, Sandra Torres. Colom was succeeded by a right-wing corrupt president who resigned for corruption and then was arrested.
     
  5. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    Cont.


    Haiti
    Before Hillary: Haiti was prepared in 2011 to re-elect Jean-Bertrand Aristide, forced out of office and into exile in a 2004 CIA coup. The prospects of Artistide’s return to power was a blessing for the slum dwellers of Haiti.

    After Hillary: Clinton refused to allow Aristide to return to Haiti from exile in South Africa until it was too late for him to run in the 2011 election. Under a series of U.S.-installed presidents, all approved by Bill and Hillary Clinton, Haiti is a virtual cash cow for the Clintons. The Clinton Foundation diverted for its own use, international aid to Haiti, and the Clintons ensured that their wealthy friends in the hotel, textile, and construction businesses landed lucrative contracts for Haitian projects, none of which have benefited the Haitian poor and many of which resulted in sweat shops and extremely low wage labor practices.

    Honduras
    Before Hillary: Emergent multi-party democracy with a populist progressive president, Manuel Zelaya. Children received free education, poor children received free school meals, interest rates were reduced, and the poorest families were given free electricity.

    After Hillary: Clinton authorized a military coup d’etat against Zelaya in 2009. Clinton family “fix-it” man Lanny Davis became a public relations flack for the military dictatorship. A fascist dictatorship involved in extrajudicial death squad killings of journalists, politicians, and indigenous leaders followed the “constitutional coup” against Zelaya. During 2012, Clinton ordered U.S. embassy in Tegucigalpa to work against the 2013 election of Xiomara Castro de Zelaya as president.

    Iraq
    Before Hillary: Under Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, Iraq experienced small moves toward an accommodation with the Kurds of the north and Sunnis. Iran acted as a moderating political force in the country that deterred any attempts by Saudi-supported jihadis to disrupt the central government in Baghdad.

    After Hillary: Clinton’s Arab Spring resulted in the rise of the Sunni/Wahhabist Islamic State in northern and western Iraq and Iraq’s plunge into failed state status. Shi’as, Kurds, Yazidis, Assyrian Christians, and moderate Sunnis were massacred by the jihadis in northern, western, and central Iraq. The Iraqi cities of Mosul, Kirkuk, and Nineveh fell to ISIL forces with non-Muslims being raped, tortured, and executed and priceless antiquities being destroyed by the marauding jihadists.

    Kosovo
    Before Hillary: Kosovo, which became independent in 2008, initially granted its Serbian minority in northern Kosovo and Metohija some degree of self-government.

    After Hillary: In 2009, Kosovo increasingly became a state ruled by criminal syndicates and terrorists of the former Kosovo Liberation Army. The rights of Serbs were increasingly marginalized and Kosovo became a prime recruiting ground for jihadist guerrillas in Arab countries subjected to Clinton’s “Arab Spring” operations, including Libya and Syria.

    Clinton pressured states receiving U.S. aid and other U.S. allies to recognize Kosovo’s independence. These included Pakistan, Palau, Maldives, St. Kitts-Nevis, Dominica, Fiji, Papua New Guinea, Burundi, East Timor, Haiti, Chad, Gambia, Brunei, Ghana, Kuwait, Ivory Coast, Gabon, St. Lucia, Benin, Niger, Guinea, Central African Republic, Andorra, Oman, Guinea-Bissau, Qatar, Tuvalu, Kiribati, Honduras, Somalia, Djibouti, Vanuatu, Swaziland, Mauritania, Malawi, New Zealand, Dominican Republic, Jordan, Bahrain, and Comoros. In the Kosovo capital of Pristina, there is a 10-foot-high statue of Bill Clinton standing over Bill Clinton Boulevard. Not far away is a women’s clothing store called “Hillary.”

    Libya
    Before Hillary: Under Muammar Qaddafi, post-sanction Libya saw a boom in urban construction and a new major international airport to serve as a hub for Africa. Plans announced for an African dinar, supported by Libyan gold holdings, to serve the needs of Africa. All Libyans received free education and medical care. There was a program for revenue sharing of Libya’s oil wealth with the Libyan people.

    After Hillary: Clinton’s 2011 regime change operations against Qaddafi, which saw the Libyan leader sodomized, beaten, and shot in the head by U.S.-supervised jihadist rebels, resulted in Clinton laughing about the incident in the infamous, “We came, we saw, he died” comment. Libya became a failed state where Islamic jihadist terrorists vied for control of the country and Qaddafi’s arm caches were given or sold to jihadist terrorists in Syria, Iraq, Egypt, the pan-Sahel region, and sub-Saharan Africa. After Qaddafi’s ouster, black African guest workers and their families were massacred by jihadist forces.

    Malaysia
    Before Hillary: Malaysia, before 2009, was a religiously tolerant nation where Buddhists, Christians, and Hindus enjoyed freedom of religion.

    After Hillary: In 2009, Najib Razak became prime minister and he began accepting bribes from Saudi Arabia that totaled some $2.6 billion with additional Malaysian public money in Razak’s personal bank accounts plus the Saudi cash totaling some $3.5 billion. Razak began allowing Saudi-influenced clerics to push for sharia law throughout Malaysia and Christians in Sarawak, Sabah, and Penang began experiencing Wahhabist repression. Clinton was silent about Malaysian persecution of non-Muslims. The reason may have been a reported several hundred million donation from Razak’s slush fund into the Clinton Foundation’s coffers.

    Palestine
    Before Hillary: In 2012, Palestine was granted non-member observer status in the United nations. The 2009 Goldstone Report of the UN found that Israel violated international humanitarian law in its war against Gaza in 2009. Palestine was gaining more support and sympathy internationally and was successfully putting to rest Israeli propaganda disinformation.

    After Hillary: Hillary Clinton rejected the Goldstone Report as “one-sided.” Clinton’s unbridled support for expanding Israeli settlements in the West Bank and east Jerusalem and its silence on the dehumanizing Israeli blockade of Gaza, emboldened Israel’s theocratic right-wing government to further encroach on Palestinian territories and cementing into place an apartheid-like series of Palestinian “Bantustans” in the West Bank and an open-air ghetto in Gaza.

    Paraguay
    Before Hillary: The country under Fernando Lugo began lifting out of poverty the nation’s rural campesinos and urban workers. Paraguay also began a steady move toward democratization after years of military dictatorships.

    After Hillary: Clinton’s 2012 “constitutional coup” against Fernando Lugo brought back into power the military-industrial oligarchy with the nation’s campesinos being forced back into poverty and repressive rule.

    South Sudan
    Before Hillary: Prior to independence in 2011, South Sudan, while rife with intra-tribal feuding, was relatively calm.

    After Hillary: After being rushed into independence from Sudan in 2011, South Sudan, a special project of Clinton, George Soros, and actor George Clooney, descended into civil war and chaos. It beat all records in being transformed from a newly-independent state into a failed state.

    Syria
    Before Hillary: Syria was a multi-cultural and multi-religious secular state championing the concept of pan-Arab socialism and progressive policies advanced by Egypt’s Gamal Abdel Nasser. Syria was not a safe place for jihadism.

    After Hillary: After Clinton’s 2011 green light for the “Arab Spring,” Syria became a failed state where the Islamic State gained a firm foothold. Minority Alawites, Christians, Druze, and Kurds were massacred by jihadist groups aided and abetted by NGOs and other interests backed by Clinton.

    Thailand
    Before Hillary: Thailand’s Red Shirt movement was a powerful force that demanded a return to democracy in Thailand and the restoration of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, ousted in a 2006 military coup, to power.

    After Hillary: A Red Shirt protest in 2010 resulted in a bloody crackdown by the Thai military. Clinton remained silent about the Thai army’s killing of protesters and the mass arrests of Red Shirt leaders. U.S. military assistance to the Thai government was continued by Clinton. When Thaskin’s sister, Yingluck Shinawatra, became prime minister in 2011, Clinton began working to undermine her and her government in a manner not unlike Clinton’s subterfuge against Rousseff in Brazil and Cristina Kirchner in Argentina. When it comes to women leaders, Clinton only tolerates conservatives who kow-tow to the United States. The pressure against Yingluck eventually resulted in her ouster in 2014 and her being criminally charged in the same manner that saw Rousseff charged in Brazil.

    Tunisia
    Before Hillary: Tunisia was one of the most secular nations in the Arab and Islamic world. A top destination for European tourists, the country was more European in its outlook than North African.

    After Hillary: After Clinton’s 2011 “Jasmine Revolution,” a textbook themed revolution crafted by Clinton’s friend George Soros, Tunisia descended into Islamist rule and violence. Today, Tunisia is the top country for recruits to the Islamic State.

    Turkey
    Before Hillary: Turkey was moving steadily closer to European standards on human rights and democracy. Even under the Islamist-oriented Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the country remained committed to pluralism.

    After Hillary: Clinton authorized the shipment of Libyan weapons captured from Qaddafi’s arms caches to Turkish middlemen in the employment of Erdogan’s government for transfer to the jihadist rebels in Syria. A complication in this arrangement resulted in the September 11, 2012 jihadist attack on the CIA warehouse facility in Benghazi, which killed U.S. envoy Chris Stevens and other State Department personnel. Turkey’s dalliance with jihadist rebels in Syria was mirrored by increasing Islamization of Turkey. The events of 2011 and 2012 resulted in Turkey today being ruled by an Islamist strongman, Erdogan, with open political opposition being stamped out.

    Ukraine
    Before Hillary: Ukraine was a stable and neutral country that neither aligned itself with the West and NATO nor with Russia under the presidency of Viktor Yanukovych, elected in 2009 and inaugurated in 2010.

    After Hillary: Clinton tried everything possible to ensure the 2009 defeat of Viktor Yanukovych. The State Department and its friends in the George Soros camp provided assistance to Clinton’s favorite candidate Yulia Tymoshenko to defeat Yanokovych. It was this early interference in the 2009 election that ultimately led to the “Euromaidan” themed revolution in 2014 against the government, resulting in civil war, the retrocession of Crimea back to Russia, and secessionist states in eastern Ukraine. Clinton’s policies directly led to a failed state in Europe.

    Venezuela
    Before Hillary: Under Hugo Chavez, the country provided basic social services to its poorest of citizens. Venezuela also provided discounted gasoline to several Caribbean and Central American countries through the PetroCaribe consortium.

    After Hillary: After Clinton allowed the U.S. embassy in Caracas to foment anti-Chavez labor and political protests, the country began to falter economically. After Chavez’s 2012 diagnosis of terminal cancer, the State Department stepped up pressure on Venezuela, crippling the nation’s economy and political system.

    Western Sahara
    Before Hillary: Recognized by the African Union and several nations around the world as the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (SADR), Western Sahara saw some hope for an evacuation of illegal Moroccan occupation troops from its territory.

    After Hillary: In 2010, Moroccan troops began entering Sahrawi refugee camps and attacking residents, even in UN-protected exclusion zones, where Moroccan troops were prohibited from entering. Clinton ensured that UN talks and a proposed popular referendum on the future of Western Sahara were stalled. Clinton pressured a number of states to withdraw their recognition of the SADR, including St. Vincent and the Grenadines, Paraguay, Haiti, Guinea-Bissau, Cape Verde, Malawi, Kenya, Mauritius, Zambia, Panama, and Burundi. The Clinton Foundation received a 2011 donation of $1 million from a Moroccan phosphate company owned by the Moroccan government and which has mining operations in Western Sahara.

    Yemen
    Before Hillary: Yemen was a largely secular state that was transforming into a federation where the rights of South Yemen and the Zaidi Houthis of north Yemen were being recognized.

    After Hillary: Clinton’s “Arab Spring” of 2011 and the fall of Abdullah Saleh from power saw Yemen become a failed state. Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and the Islamic State gained control over several areas of North and South Yemen. The fall of Saleh permitted Saudi Arabia to conduct a genocidal war in the country with Mrs. Clinton’s full support.








    nst
     
  6. Oh Yeah

    Oh Yeah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    All this radical Muslim stuff is a result of the madrassa's of Saudi Arabia and the radicalization of Iran and their exploiting of situations in the Middle East. Every one of those countries has unstable country and many of the radicals have infiltrated the refugee population. Much of the radicalization of Americans come from these countries like Somalia. Many of our home grown terrorists have been overseas and been to these countries or passed through to Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait etc. It doesn't matter what country; what matters is ideology. More countries should be added not deleted.
     
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  7. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Kansas, Louisiana, Montana, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas and West Virginia - now there's a stellar lineup.
     
  8. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    What causes you to look down your nose at them?
     
  9. Phyxius

    Phyxius Well-Known Member

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    And yet, only Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen made the list. Why?
     
  10. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    Give Trump a bit more time and cooperation and it will be sorted out. Why not volunteer to work for him?
     
  11. tom444

    tom444 Well-Known Member

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    We're not into showbiz here in New England.


    From Boston
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2017
  12. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    That's all progressive Marxists have to offer to the middle class.
     
  13. tom444

    tom444 Well-Known Member

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    Born in New England

    • Oct 30, 1735 , John Adams.
    • Jul 11, 1767 , John Quincy Adams.
    • Nov 23, 1804 , Franklin Pierce.
    • Oct 5, 1829 , Chester A. Arthur.
    • Jul 4, 1872 , Calvin Coolidge.
    • May 29, 1917 , John F. Kennedy.
    • Jun 12, 1924 , George H. W. Bush.
    • Jul 6, 1946 , George W. Bush.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2017
  14. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    You messed up with that last one.
     
  15. MrTLegal

    MrTLegal Well-Known Member

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    Read my lips: Muslim is not a bad thing.

    We live in a country that protects a person's right to believe and practice any religion that they so choose. Discriminating against the most populous religion in the world is both unamerican and bigoted.

    And again, you are talking about a massive disruption to the US economy and US citizens because it is "better safe than sorry." Hell, the reduction in foreign visitors, because of the THREAT of the travel ban, is estimated to cost the US $25 billion over the next two years.
     
  16. tom444

    tom444 Well-Known Member

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    How so?

    >>George Walker Bush is an American politician who served as the 43rd President of the United States from 2001 to 2009. He was also the 46th Governor of Texas from 1995 to 2000. Wikipedia

    Born: July 6, 1946 (age 70 years), New Haven, CT <<

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2017
  17. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    The amicus brief fails for the same reason that the Trump administration was unable to avoid the courts' imposing restraining orders. It's really quite simple.
    The amicus brief makes the following claim:

    Title 8 U.S.C. § 1182(f) actually states:

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1182

    The key word is "finds" that's a reference to a "legal finding" based upon the following definition:
    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Finding

    In short President Trump, in order to implement the provisions of 8 U.S.C. § 1182(f) required significant evidence that allowing admission based upon national origin of individuals from the listed countries would be "detrimental to the interests of the United States." The plaintiff's challenged the allegation that admission based upon national origin would be "detrimental to the interests of the United States." The Trump administration failed to ever produce any evidence that that national origin established that individuals from these countries represented any detrimental effect upon the United States.

    The Trump administration was unable to produce any evidence that the threat claimed in the executive order exists because the evidence doesn't exist according to the Department of Homeland Security.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/02/24/dhs-memo-contradict-travel-ban-trump/98374184/

    The travel bans were Muslim travel bans because no evidence existed where national origin from any of the countries listed represented a significant threat. The President has been unable to produce a "finding" and his order is in violation of 8 U.S.C. § 1182(f) that requires a "finding of fact" before the president can impose the restriction or ban.

    The amicus brief goes on to state:

    This is also false. The national security risk from the Congress and the Obama Administration did not identify any of those from the countries listed as being security risks. This refers to the Visa Waiver Program and it identified those individuals that are foreigners entering these countries without a visa as being potential security risks.

    There's been no evidence that the US visas being issued to individuals from these countries are inadequate. Individuals from these countries are not responsible for committing any terrorist attacks once they enter the United State. The country of origin has nothing to do with US visas being issued and our visa issuing procedures have been up significantly improved since the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

    It was a Muslim ban from the beginning and it was never based upon a security threat to the United States.
     
  18. IMMensaMind

    IMMensaMind Banned

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    Typical liberal tactic: calling something with which you agree 'fact' doesn't make it fact.
     
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  19. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    Actually, those are both good reasons to see that the wrong Islamists don't get in here.

    1. If they do, we can kiss religious freedom for everyone else good bye.

    2. As for tourism, how do you think the terrorist attacks there have affected tourism in France?
     
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  20. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    You can dance around on the head of a pin until the cows come home, and it will still not justify the progressive Marxist opposition to Trump on this issue. He garnered a good many electoral college votes because of it, and every time another occurrence takes place your side will be rightfully blamed.

    To add insult to injury, it is Hillary's terrible actions in the Mideast that are the most recent excuses for terrorists to hate this country--and most of us were totally unaware of her revolution games at the time, but some of us will inevitably have to pay for them.
     
  21. Oh Yeah

    Oh Yeah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's a small price to pay for safety. If Muslim is not a bad thing then why all the death and destruction that is associated with the religion throughout the world. What other religion preaches death to those who do not convert to the faith?
     
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  22. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    That is true and why was it that those that are brought to the United States as children or that are born here become susceptible to becoming radicalized and influenced by Al-qaeda and Isis propaganda? According to the experts it's because they're marginalized by the anti-Muslim prejudice of the bigots in America. As children they're disparaged, bullied, and socially excluded from being accepted as Americans. They become marginalized by not being accepted as a part of the American Identity because of the right-wing religious intolerance of those that support the Muslim Ban. Every person that cheered at the Trump campaign rallies when Trump promised the Muslim Ban is responsible for marginalizing these young children and driving them into the open arms of Al-Qaeda an ISIS.

    Many? How many? Off the top of my head I can't recall any of those involved in Islamic terrorist attacks committed in the United States since 9/11 having visited any of the countries on Trump's Muslim travel ban list as adults. If there are "many" then you should be able to list ten of them. Can you name ten? Can you even name one?

    Yes, some of these countries are unstable and Al-Qaeda and ISIS has moved into the countries. If a foreigner wanted to hook up with ISIS or Al-Qaeda they're obviously countries that someone might go to which is why the seven countries are on the Visa Waiver Program list. Foreigners visiting these countries that visit these countries without a visa are subjected to additional scrutiny. It's not because those born in the countries listed are members of Al-Qaeda or ISIS but instead because members of Al-Qaeda and/or ISIS have relocated into those countries.

    Afghanistan, not on the list, can be used as an example because the first use of MOAB bomb was recently applauded by many when it targeted an ISIS tunnel complex. I'm sure most recall that from just weeks ago. And how many members of ISIS are suspected of being in Afghanistan? From what I read the total estimated number of ISIS members in Afghanistan was between 800-1000. There are 32 million people living in Afghanistan and 800-1000 are suspected of being foreign born members of ISIS.

    Citizens of these countries seeking a visa to come to the United States are already subjected to enhanced scrutiny since 9/11 by the United States and it must be very good because not a single one of them has committed a terrorist attack in the United States.

    Iranians are not inherently anti-American and, in fact, the recent nuclear agreement between representatives of the United Nations, that included the United States representative, represented a major breakthrough in "Western" interests and Iran that opened the door for future agreements. In fighting against international terrorism from Al-Qaeda and ISIS Iran is actually a default ally of the United States because Iran opposes the international terrorism being spread by Sunni Muslims. When the United States was attacked on 9/11 Iran was one of the leading countries in supporting the US efforts in our fight against international Islamic terrorism.

    Iran does oppose the US invasions of Muslim countries in violation of the UN Charter. The US invasions of Afghanistan in 2001 and invasion of Iraq in 2003 were in direct violation of the UN Charter because both lacked authorization by the UN Security Council.

    Iran also opposes the US support for Israel's tyrannical oppression of the Palestinians where Israel refuses to negotiate the official division of "Palestine" into a Jewish and Arab nation without preconditions (i.e. The entire territory of Palestine must be subject to division relatively equally between the Israeli government and the Palestinian government as envisioned by UNGA 181). As Iran correctly notes the State of Israel cannot exist without the mutual voluntary consent of the Palestinians where the Palestinians also receive the same recognition by Israel. Under the UN Charter and prior agreements the government of Israel and the government of the Palestinians both exist but neither has any claim to any territory in Palestine without the voluntary consent of the opposite government because the "acquisition of territory by force" is unacceptable.

    Iran is actually standing in support of international law as well as the UN Charter in it's opposition to US foreign policies that violate International Law and the UN Charter. Iran has repeatedly documented compliance with UN Security Council resolution 1373 (war on terrorism) and is not identified as a state sponsor of terrorism although the United States State Department, that has no international authority, does identify Iran as a state sponsor of terrorism because it supports groups that engage in military and/or paramilitary activities that do, in some instances, include acts of terrorism against Israel. The United States also provides assistance to groups that, in addition to military and/or paramilitary activities, engage in acts of terrorism. For example the US is supporting the Iraqi Kurds that routinely commit acts of terrorism against Turkey and Iran.

    It's really a case of the kettle calling the pot black.

    Every American prefers to be safe as opposed to sorry but there has to be an identifiable threat. Being a Muslim is not an identifiable threat and, according to a survey of US law enforcement organizations the Islamic terrorist threat is not the greatest threat of terrorism in the United States. Radical extremist right-wing groups represent the greatest threat of terrorism in the United States today.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/the-other-terror-threat.html?_r=1

    No one is advocating "Open Borders for Muslims" but instead we stand in opposition to "Closed Borders for Muslims" based upon prejudice unsupported by evidence that's being advocated for by President Trump in his executive orders.

    We do advocate extreme vetting and that is already in place. Following the 9/11 attacks the Bush administration re-evaluated our vetting process for authorizing visas from all countries, including those on the Trump's list, and the vetting process was significantly increased. As new possible vetting criteria was identified it was incorporated in the issuing of visas by both the Bush and Obama administrations. The most stringent of all vetting processes are those related to providing permanent refugee immigration status and it's been very effective. A study indicates that over the last forty years not a single refugee vetted for refugee immigration to the United States has committed an act of terrorism in the United States.

    The problem is that some claim that our vetting process is inadequate but they lack any evidence to support the allegation because we have a "perfect record" when it comes to granting refugee immigration status over at least the last 40 years. As also noted no one from Trump's list of seven countries has ever committed a terrorist act of conspired to commit a terrorist attack in the United States. Not even the two "Bowling Green Massacre" Iraqis that plead guilty to "terrorism related" charges were involved in any terrorist plot in the United States. They plead guilty to attempting to provide material support to Al-Qaeda in Iraq.

    When there is evidence of a creditable threat then the US government needs to take action to address it. There isn't a creditable threat based upon either "national origin" or the "Muslim religion" and prohibiting immigration upon either criteria is a violation of the US Constitution and US immigration law.

    https://qz.com/919257/department-of...port-rejects-donald-trumps-travel-ban-claims/

    On what grounds would you oppose immigration from Pakistan? You can't claim it's based upon a "threat" of possible terrorism because the DHS, responsible for addressing potential threats has already established the national origin (citizenship) does not establish a creditable threat.

    Do you oppose immigration to the United States just because 97% of Pakistanis are Muslims?

    There have been no international acts of terrorism committed in the United States since 9/11/2001. All of the "Islamic" terrorist attacks in the United States have been domestic terrorists attacks and it was not the teachings of the Muslim religion that were responsible. It was the religious intolerance of the "right" that marginalized the young Muslim that resulted in the terrorist act and not the Muslim religion. The motive is political, not religious.

    https://www.theguardian.com/comment...gion-that-creates-terrorists-its-the-politics

    The underlying problem is that all of the above factual information is going to be ignored because of the religious intolerance, prejudice, and bigotry of those that hate Muslims. If they cared about the facts then they would be opposed to Trump's Muslim travel bans.
     
    Phyxius and Jonsa like this.
  23. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    I wasn't aware of the fact that opposing religious intolerance, prejudice and bigotry was related to Marxism. I thought those were core values of America.

    "Every other occurrence" of what? The last international act of Islamic terrorism in the United States was 9/11/2001 and there are no recorded terrorists attacks by those vetted and allowed into the United States as political refugees for at least the last 40 years.

    According the law enforcement the Islamic terrorist threat isn't even the most significant terrorist threat to the United States. The greatest terrorist threat to the United States is by the radical extreme right with advocates like Steven "Roll out the Hate" Bannon that wants do "deconstruct" the United States government.
     
  24. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not that I'm going to respond to this ridiculous list about "destroyed" nations since it comes from a "usual source".

    Zerohedge doesn't have much of a track record wrt affairs of state, and considering that they are just three wall street guys (one who was thrown out of the biz for insider trading) one shouldn't give too much credence to such a lame attempt to connect hillary to everything bad in the world. But of course you'd lap that up.

    And frankly, I am not surprised you can't objectively review this nonsense and see it for what it really is. A hit piece of little to no actual substance, short on fact long on accusation.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2017
  25. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    Few of us even knew what a Muslim was until 9-11, so the claims of experiencing bigotry in early childhood for most terrorist Islamists that grew up in the US are invalid. They were seen as being just like anyone else. In fact, it is the progressive Marxists that have been pushing identity politics--first they make a group identifiable so it can be scapegoated and see that it is, and then they rush to "save" it from the conditions they themselves have set up.

    The idea that terrorist actions by people that "happen" to be Muslims are "only political" and not religious slyly ignores the fact that Islam is a system of political and governmental organization, not a "religion" as we typically see religion in the West.
     

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