That's not good - ex Jakartas Governor gets 2 years

Discussion in 'Australia, NZ, Pacific' started by m2catter, May 9, 2017.

  1. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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  2. slipperyfish

    slipperyfish Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure why this comes as a surprise. Honestly.

    It is only a matter of time before Indonesia moves away from secularism, as we are seeing in other Islamic countries.

    There is no such thing as "moderate Islam". It is just plain Islam. There is no other version contrary to popular belief. It is what it is, and the only ones saying otherwise are the foolish Christian apologists trying to make out there is another form of Islam. There isn't.

    I am surprised the President has allowed this case to get as far as it has. It is a slight on the governments version of modern Indonesia and on the President himself. Muslim Indonesians have in the past been very tolerant of other religions, however over the last decade that I have been conducting business in the region, I have to say that that tolerance has declined markedly.

    This case is a massive slap in the face for tolerance and human rights. Indonesia is going through a metamorphosis from Secular State to Religious State by stealth. If the President does not quash this judgement it will signal the beginning of the end for a free and tolerant Indonesia.
     
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  3. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    sf,
    yes and no.
    There are plenty of Muslim living peacefully among us, meaning no hard core nutters. The same in other western countries.
    Despite that it is disturbing what happens in other part of the world, now Indonesia.
    I wished I knew an answer, education is a start....
    Regards
     
  4. slipperyfish

    slipperyfish Well-Known Member

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    Yes Cats education may hold some answers, however I think the people who need the education is us.

    You must first understand the Islamic faith. This faith does not accommodate any other faith and see's those faiths as heretic in theory. Like the bible it was written many centuries ago when the world was a vastly different place. However it still remains, that unlike Christianity, Islam does not preach tolerance.

    I don't want to make this a Muslim bash by any means but you must ask yourself this question. Right now Muslim's are a minority overall in this country, but will these so called "moderate Muslims" still be as moderate when they are the majority?

    Jakarta suggests no they won't.

    Walk around some parts of Melbourne and Sydney where they are clearly the majority and again you will find the answer is no.

    Where do you want this to go?

    Sometimes it is a case of............. If it quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, then it is usually a duck!
     
  5. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Oddly enough, you probably have more to worry about from Canada. They're not far behind, when it comes to Blasphemy Laws.
     
  6. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Oddly enough, you probably have more to worry about from Canada. They're not far behind, when it comes to Blasphemy Laws.
     
  7. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm,
    Indonesia was/is a majority Muslim country for quite some time, with a Christian ex Governor, a very successful one by the way.
    So their country/system has worked in the past, without the hardliners.
    What has changed, and more importantly, why has it changed?
    Would it be fair to say that this extremism has (globally) started since the Iraq War, or are there other events responsible for that development?
    Regards
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
  8. slipperyfish

    slipperyfish Well-Known Member

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    I think the incredible surge in extremism, on all fronts, has increased about the same time social media has increased.

    In the past society at large could shut down zealots with not too much fuss, however now, these same hardliners can spread their message far and wide in seconds. Going from a group of say ten to thousands within the blink of an eye.

    Blaming it on a conflict would suit some quarters, but extremism was around long before then. Can you not remember the countless airline hijackings in the late seventies and eighties, embassy bombings, and mass genocide of differing tribes. It is the human stain. My grandfather always said that a fool on his own is just a fool, but two fools are dangerous.

    What has changed? LOTS.

    Economic hardship is a lot different to economic hardship in the past. It is far more psychological than it has ever been. This has been in part the fault of social media.

    When people are doing it rough they look to whatever means to ease their burden. Let us face it, through Globalisation(that façade of fair trade), we have never seen the gap between rich and poor so large. Through Globalisation we now have more millionaires and Billionaires than any other time in history. We also have more starving and needy than ever before. Yes this may in part be due to rapid population growth, but I also believe it is also due to Globalisation and the advent of the Mega company. These companies rape local communities of their wealth, replacing it with hardship and despair. Governments turn a blind eye due to the backdoor cash deals from these criminal companies. For every Ying there is a Yang. In terms of Globalisation, it's yang is despair and hardship.

    Enter the Zealot.

    People need to believe that their life can get better. Otherwise what is the purpose of living. Through wildly dreamed up dogma and carefully spelled out fears, these zealots win the hearts of the hopeless and all of sudden we have groups like Isis, Al-Queda, and the Nazis.

    Unfortunately in our current times a large majority of these dangerous groups have sprung from the Islamic Faith. I am no expert, but from what I have read, I can see how easily the faith can adhere to the dogma of groups like Isis. It is quite explicit with its dealings of outsiders, to the point of condoning the actions of such groups. If the almighty condones the act, then how can it be wrong????

    Remembering that a lot of the Islamic faithful are in the so called third world ring. Average people do not have much, and what they do have, greedy western countries take for very little recompense under the fair trade of Globalisation.

    I can fully understand why they loathe us. Crying because our internet is not instantaneous. Bitching because Netflix is off air. Crying foul when Maccas ice cream machine is down.

    We are a pathetic lot. Hardship for us is as little as being stuck in traffic for some time overheating the Mercedes, or not having enough coin to buy a pack of smokes. Hardship for them is a lot different. For them it is watching a child die of starvation, seeing their village scrapped to make way for a road to service a mine, or having themselves gang raped on a daily basis. That is hardship, not being too fat to get a job is NOT hardship.

    So you ask what has changed, and I have only touched on a small number of things. So when I say Lots, I mean LOTS.

    However blaming it on one blot in time, only suits a particular agenda. It is more a symptom than a cause.

    The question is Cats, do you want it to change to their way? Because there is no middle ground under the Islamic faith. There is no tolerance of other ways.
     
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  9. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    Very well written post, except for the last 2 sentences.
    I am not trying to politicize the Iraq War, for me things have dramatically changed since with the main perpetrators (Bush, Blair, Howard) still at large.
    It was an unjust war against a mainly Muslim country....
    However, what you write is also correct. But I am struggling with the last sentence, because you won't allow Muslim to be peaceful and tolerant.
    I worked with a Turk (Muslim one) for many years, a really nice guy. Every time something came up where the Islam was questioned, he said the Christian God and theirs is one and the same, only using different names. He did not have any issues with Christianity, nor did he try to convince me of Islam. However, he never really mixed with the other boys. Which provides your position with some sort of strengthening.
    You mentioned the Nazis before, they were easy pray for a nutter, who used very difficult times with plenty of hardship (Germany after WW1, especially between 1920 and 1930) to convince them of a better life.
    So it comes back to hardship and education.
    Or injustice. Seen in Israel (mentioning land grab, water rights and so on) or many other events since the mid 1900's.
    I don't know Indonesia good enough to allow for a qualified opinion, bit it seams they were a tolerant society 10 to 15 years earlier.
    We should invite them to discuss any further and to gain some insight....
    Wish you a great weekend,
    cheers
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
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  10. Indofred

    Indofred Banned at Members Request

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    The Indonesian government is very active in seeking out the extremist groups here, and very much hunting the leaders of these idiots.
    The main actor, Rizieq Shihab, will be arrested the moment he re-enters Indonesia, now facing a variety of charges, each intended for separate trials and each carrying unlimited fines and (I think) six years prison on each count.
    The crimes include sending porn photos, insulting the state, insulting the state bank, insulting Christianity, insulting security guards and a bunch of other stuff.
    I know the government's position is firm on this stuff, and it isn't looking good for him.

    http://jakartaglobe.id/news/police-plan-to-take-fpi-leader-by-force/

    I would imagine he'll try to either stay abroad for as long as possible or enter Indonesia on the quiet.
     
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  11. Indofred

    Indofred Banned at Members Request

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    As a note, Ahok has a lot of support here from all sections of the population because he did such a good job but was also very foolish in stating the things he did.
    Much as I don't believe his words were intended to insult anyone, the hard liners were always going to latch on and use them against him.
     
  12. slipperyfish

    slipperyfish Well-Known Member

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    From the outside it does appear that the government is working hard to keep the wolf from the door, but actions speak louder than words, and the lack of action by the government in regards to Ahok to me is a defining moment in Indonesias move away from secularism. If Wododo was serious about keeping the status quo he would of quashed the ruling instantly. His silence was deafening.

    To me the reach of Islam is moving deeper into the governing bodies of Indonesia. How deep is yet to be seen.
     
  13. Indofred

    Indofred Banned at Members Request

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    He can't.
    UUD 1945 forbids the president from interfering with the courts.
    I've read the document and understand the nature of it.

    By the way, he's known as Jokowi here.

    One thing I have seen is the massive number of people changing their Facebook profile picture to Garuda Pancasila in support of Ahok and diversity.
     
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  14. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    My understanding of your Presidents's powers are that he can pardon. So he can interfere in some ways, if he wanted to....
    Regards
     
  15. Indofred

    Indofred Banned at Members Request

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    He has that ability but the extremists would simply claim he was anti Islam and use it as an excuse to up their terror activities and other stupidity.
    To get rid of the bark, you must kill the top dogs first; once they're gone, the others shut up.
    Armed terrorists are no special worry as the police have every right and excuse to dispatch them to hell, but that lot are just the foot soldiers, the real actors being in other places.

    The situation here is difficult and I think Jokowi is getting it about right.
    Once the dogs are dead or on a short leash, Ahok can be released.

    Start here
    https://seword.com/umum/prabowo-tommy-soeharto-hary-tanoe-calon-presiden-anies-pilih-yang-mana/

    Then google all the names, and add CIA and/or Trump to the search string.

    Oh, how lovely politics turns out to be.
     
  16. slipperyfish

    slipperyfish Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your insight Indofred. It is always good to get on the ground information in regards to issues rather than mainstream media rubbish.

    No doubt Jokowi is in a predicament, however if Ahok has the support of the numbers you say, shouldn't he be empowered to speak up on behalf of the persecution of this man?

    In the end if Jokowi really does believe in the current system and the longevity of a secular state, this has to be his defining moment. By allowing extremists to sway both government decision and judicial process he has surely shown a weakness and lack of belief in the future of the secular state.

    I do feel for him. He is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. On one hand he can appease the zealots and say nothing for fear of reprisal. This is shown as a weakness in many quarters. On the other hand he can intervene and state the case for freedom of process that underpins a secular society, risking widespread reprisals from the extreme.

    I guess it is a case of what legacy he wishes to leave his wonderful but precariously perched country.
     
  17. Indofred

    Indofred Banned at Members Request

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    Cash and corruption are still big drives here and some of the groups are well enough funded to buy support from well placed people.
    Since that includes some lawmakers with more greed than interest in the people of this country, Joko has his problems.
    Assuming you conducted the searches I suggested you'll already have an outline of the situation, but there's a heck of a lot more going on than that.
    Another problem is the feeling of boldness the more extreme groups have gained from their 'victory', but that's a double edged sword as the stuff their coming out with will land them in prison.
    Defamation is a criminal offence here, just as insulting the state or state institutions is, and that includes Pancasila, the state ideology.
    These people are opening attacking these things, and that's going to land them in trouble.
    As a note, the main idiot is now hiding in Malaysia, but a red notice has been issued so he shouldn't last long.
    I'm hoping he resists arrest and gets killed but he's likely to be a coward as well as a fool.
     
  18. slipperyfish

    slipperyfish Well-Known Member

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    I hear what you are saying.

    It is easy for us to sit here in our little cocoon of self righteousness, but it is a whole new world outside the sandy beaches of OZ.

    I guess time will tell, but right now it seems the extreme have the upper hand.

    I know very little of the underbelly of Indonesia, but what I do know is that the people are very warm and the ones I know care very little for conflict and aggression.

    Again it has been great to hear from someone on the ground. Thankyou.
     
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  19. Indofred

    Indofred Banned at Members Request

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    After much pussyfooting around ...

    http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2017/05/15/police-to-pick-up-fpi-jakarta-leader.html

    Rizieq has done a runner but that won't last long. Rumour says he's in Malaysia and intending to enter Europe but I really don't see any country in that region letting a idiot like him in for any reason.
    Still Eurostupid asylum laws could be wheeled out by Blair's fugly wife in the hope of making a few quid for keeping him away from justice.
     
  20. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your input, indofred,
    it scares me when people cannot discuss religion, or talk sex or watch porn.
    Happy to live in the 21st century in Australia.
    Anyway, scary the future, so it seems,
    cheers
     
  21. Indofred

    Indofred Banned at Members Request

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    The cops have finally got around to issuing an arrest warrant for the FPI's chief idiot.
    Last anyone heard he was in Malaysia, hiding from the law like a frightened rabbit.
     
  22. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    Is there an English version of the article?
     
  23. Indofred

    Indofred Banned at Members Request

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    Oops, sorry, My Indonesian is getting much better now and I don't always realise it isn't in English.
    I'm unaware of an English version but just pick up the names and google as I suggest.
    Your eyes will begin to open.
    There are a lot more players, but these are some of the more serious ones.
     
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  24. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    That blog is a bit eye opening. Is it a reputable source? Christians, Mossad, Saudis, child sex , CIA assets... you've got it all!
     
  25. Indofred

    Indofred Banned at Members Request

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    religion is discussed often, but you aren't allowed to insult anyone's religion. That's one of the charges he and a couple of others are up on and it could likely get him six years slammed up. Quite right too.

    Sex here is a private thing so not much talked about in public but boys are boys and girls are girls, so the normal discussions you would expect in any country are just as normal her with groups of men or women, but not mixed groups.

    There is little advantage in porn and it's something I grew out of by the time I was 13. I was fed up with strip joints before I turned 19, realising both were for pointless wankers who couldn't get a girlfriend.
    I don't especially object to porn as long as the parties concerned are all willing and of an age to take part but I consider it to be pointless rubbish for fools and young teenage boys with an overactive right hand.

    In this case the illegality of porn is quite handy because:
    It makes our super religious dude look like a moron
    it's likely to get him another six years slammed up, so probably in need a of a little paper excitement, unless he should turn to sodomy.
     

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