The Basics, Abortion is a Homicide, Face that Fact

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Whaler17, Feb 21, 2017.

  1. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Are you too afraid to use the quote feature so the poster will know there's a reply? WHO are you replying to?
     
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  2. kiwimac

    kiwimac Well-Known Member

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    Are you talking to me?
     
  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  4. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Then why didn't you have the guts to use the quote feature so he knew he had a reply??


    And , why didn't you read this thread to find out why abortion is not murder?
     
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  5. kiwimac

    kiwimac Well-Known Member

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    Murder is a legal term which means the "unlawful taking of a human life" ; Abortion is legal thus not murder. No biblical text supports the idea that abortion is murder, no biblical author considered it so and Jesus, although surrounded by cultures quite happy with abortion, never spoke about it.
     
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  6. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    If the poster is not willing to use the quote feature then just ignore their posts.

    Eventually they will figure out that if they want a reply from another poster they need to use it.
     
  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In some parts of China there have been numerous reports of forced abortion, where the government authorities force women to get abortions, even when it's very late into their pregnancies.
    Do you think that's not murder?

    (Just to clarify, the women are held down against their will and injected with an abortion drug, and it's basically legal)
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  8. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    It's not murder if it's legal.

    But see what happens when women's right to their own body is taken away....just like China, Anti-Choicers want women controlled.
     
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  9. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Its the law of the land. There are a lot of things I find unethical in China, but its not my business. Here in the US, we don't allow women to be forced against their will. We don't force abortion and we don't force them to carry full term. You can, however, convince some of them to carry full term and give the child up for adoption.
     
  10. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you agree that if someone else kills a fetus in the womb, without the woman's permission, it's murder. But only because it's illegal.
     
  11. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If that was for me,

    Yes its murder.

    Just to make it clear, I am against abortion. Being a reasonable person, I would never support laws that would force my beliefs into others, and know that laws of this nature are ineffective. The real issue with unwanted pregnancies is the "Unwanted" part.

    If a woman did not want the pain and physical damage from pregnancy, laws would only create a demand for medical tourism and black market abortions. Sure, you may catch a few and send them to prison, but what have you really done for society?

    The others who do not want the emotional and financial commitment of raising a child can be persuaded to give the child up for adoption. This is where the "WANTED" part of the discussion comes in. This requires a parent "wanting" the child. Unfortunately, there are thousands of children that will never know what it is like to be "wanted" Many will end up in prison.

    Just curious, why does your concern for the lives and welfare of these children end once they are born?
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
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  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well it doesn't. But my concern over abortion extends beyond only the welfare of the fetus, it also has to do with justice.
    If I can draw an analogy to help you understand here, it's like the difference between someone not giving a homeless pan handler food and someone lighting a homeless person's cardboard box on fire while they're sleeping in it. It's true, in a way, that the end results are sort of the same thing, as you argue, but the acts are still not the same thing.

    Is there some level of hypocrisy somewhere? Maybe, but it's not all hypocrisy. It is possible to advocate against someone being KILLED without advocating for saving someone's life.

    Now, I suppose you could argue that the woman is simply choosing to withhold her sustenance from the fetus, and so is not directly killing it. But that argument would kind of be like two people stranded on a deserted island, one has all the food and he's not going to share. There's no way the other person can survive without the food, so the first person decides he might as well kill the other person, bashing a coconut on his skull. Bashing a coconut on his skull has the same end effect that not sharing his food does. According to the logic being used here, since he has the right to not share his food, and since the result of that is the same as using the coconut as a tool of killing, he has a right to kill.

    Now one doesn't quite imply the other, now does it?
    In the same way, the woman's supposed right not to have to nourish a baby in her womb doesn't quite implicate the right to have an abortion, now does it?
    I don't know, this is all looking like a huge moral grey zone when you try to zoom in on things and actually follow a chain of logic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  13. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    It's only your "moral grey zone"....others decide for themselves.

    Your coconuts comparisons are just silly. For one, the pregnant woman does not withhold sustenance, she just has the fetus killed. There is no other way to stop the fetus from using her body to sustain it's life....something no person has the right to do.
     
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  14. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Technically it is assault!

    Only if the women dies as a result of the assault would there be murder charges for killing the woman. Some states do allow a second murder charge for the fetus but only if the murder charge against the woman is proven in court.
     
  15. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    The "moral grey zone" is because no one else has the right to dictate and impose their morality onothers.

    In essence if a woman already has several children that she can just barely afford to feed, clothe and house is it "moral" to force her to give birth to yet another child thereby depriving the existing children of food, clothing and housing.

    So that is her decision and not yours or mine. She deals with her own situation and morality without anyone else dictating and/or imposing their morality on her.
     
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  16. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your morality and opinion have no bearing on this situation whatsoever beyond the confines of your mind. You obviously believe a fetus is a person and must be treated as such, that is the ONLY reason to take the positions you do. I and many others (including the woman who actually matters) do not agree with your assumptions. The "Grey Area" you define is self imposed and arbitrary in this as it involves personal choice being imposed upon another person.
    Basically your opinion does not extend beyond yourself where physical reality comes into play, we as a society do not allow any one individual to impose themselves on another or control them....we call this slavery.
     
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  17. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Since you brought the homeless into the conversation, why not claim to care about them as well by suggesting others house them? I have such a high level of concern, I am willing to let them move in with you. What would you tell me about my level of caring?

    Heres the problem. We already have thousands of unwanted children that will never see the inside of a loving home and will never know what it feels like to be wanted. Raising them in the system is profitable for the prisons, but bad for them and the rest of society. You would add millions to that number.

    Saying "Abortion is bad" is easy. How do you propose we raise these additional children when there are not enough loving parents for the ones we have?

    Have you thought this through and if so, what is your plan?
     
  18. AlifQadr

    AlifQadr Well-Known Member

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    Whaler 17,

    I made the argument in another OP that abortion is I fact, First Degree Murder, aka. Murder One and was ridiculed and lambasted, even subjected to two of the OP regulars telling me that I should call the police. Such demented viewpoints I do not find funny because a child is under development in utero (in the uterus or womb). For a person to have such a callous, cold, and uncaring position about human life demonstrates to me the level of depravity observed in murders and other types of the criminal elements in this society. To me, it is extremely disturbing how some people in this society hold such wanton disregard for human life. To boot, many of those in government hold the same or similar views. Because of the disregard for human life, I do not hold any positive hopes for this society as a whole.

    Although you initial post is from February 21, 2017, I want to thank you for having the decency and posting it. :applause::applause::salute::flagus:
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  19. AlifQadr

    AlifQadr Well-Known Member

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    It is common sense that when a woman is pregnant, that the phrase of “a woman has control over her own body” goes out of the window being that she is WITH CHILD. Therefore, whatever a woman does after the point of conception, no longer only involves HER BODY, there is SOMEONE ELSE that she has to consider. This is why a woman should not drink beverages containing alcohol, smoke cigarettes, or do anything that will cause harm to the other persons that is inside of her womb. The insane parsing when it comes to the topic of abortion is not only inhumane but it is evil as well.
     
  20. AlifQadr

    AlifQadr Well-Known Member

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    When an ovum is fertilized with a sperm, it develops into a human being. It is similar with you taking the seed of any given vegetable or fruit, plant it in a fertile field, nurture it and it will develop into a plant that will produce the same type of vegetable or fruit. This is the same process when a sperm fertilizes and ovum and the same fertilized ovum is embedded (planted) in the uterine wall, gestates and develops from seven to nine months, a baby is born.
     
  21. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    You: """For a person to have such a callous, cold, and uncaring position about human life demonstrates to me the level of depravity observed in murders and other types of the criminal elements in this society. To me, it is extremely disturbing how some people in this society hold such wanton disregard for human life""

    Yup, every time a bomb blows up innocent children in the name of some warped god or a truck drives purposely into a crowd wantonly killing anyone they can I feel the same way""
     
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  22. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Gee, thanks for the biology lesson.:roll:....I think most people know those facts of life...
     
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  23. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Gee, thanks for the biology lesson.

    Are you saying that an acorn is the same as an oak tree?
     
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  24. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    .



    NO, women do NOT lose their rights when they become pregnant.





    No, there is not "someone else", there is only a fetus.




    Taking away women's right to their own body is quite evil.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
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  25. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Well, if it IS murder don't you have a responsibility to call the police??? You see a murder and don't report it you could get in trouble...




    Since abortion has been around since humans have been around your theory on no positive hopes for this society falls flat.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
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