The end of freedom of expression online:

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Plus Ultra, Aug 20, 2017.

  1. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    As far as I agree with you ... but there is a problem:
    What about this owners of shops, bars and so on who deny to sell or serve to people as customer due to be not liked by them, because being gay, black, yellow, Nazi, lefty, Hillary fan, Trump fan etc. Are they allowed to do so?

    As regards Google as a search engine in economic operation, there are already procedures and imposed penalties ... e.g. 2 billion euro penalty imposed by the EU because of distortion of competition in the search results ... because Google here is where the little or not pay to Google on page 56 of the search results packets or even completely omitted. Of course you can say that Google is a company that wants to earn money, but the EU Commission sees it differently because Google exploits its power position to the detriment of the consumers and also of the competitors ... illegally exploited!
     
  2. Gatewood

    Gatewood Well-Known Member

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    Since the way in which the radical and hate-filled Left does it Social Justice leads to across the board repression and very hard times for everyone -- well -- yes.
     
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  3. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Ehm ... since when is "social" evil please?
    Obviously you mix "social" with "Socialist" ... the difference between both is huge, because if you call "Social" as bad, then is welfare bad too, because social means this too!
     
  4. Texas Republican

    Texas Republican Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We will have a dystopian future.

    Let's be grateful we live at the present time.
     
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  5. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Get real. The excesses of some whacked out social justice warriors does not detract at all from the fact that social justice is a cornerstone of modern civilization, no matter how regressive or conservative one may be.

    Seems too often politics is about excoriation of one's political opposition by using the most extreme examples as representative of "them". Mindless nonsense devoid analysis, accuracy and understanding.
     
  6. AlifQadr

    AlifQadr Well-Known Member

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    This is a scary notion and reality that was being spoken about frequently in political chatrooms across Yahoo! Chat decades ago. The reality that speech is actually culled, monitored and edited for the purpose of presenting a falsified guise of not offending another person is not only dangerous but it is outright controlling thought. It is called “The Dumbing Down of America”. Under corporate policy, this is being done but the reality is that there has been a forward marching move in these United States to limit the exposure of thoughts and ideas that are not in keeping and in step with corporate dictums, which is what Benito Mussolini coined as fascism; the combination of government and corporate power into oneness (Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.)

    . In saying this, I am all for being antifascist and limiting corporate influence in and through government, but I am not for the agenda of The Left, which has always been financed by the same corporate powers that they say they stand against. Every dictator from distant to recent history has been financed by moneyed interests. Why would they do such a thing, it may be asked? The reasoning has to do with control. What those on the Left do not realize is that their environmental, equal rights, equal justice legislation has to do with the elimination of competitors; the cost of opening, operating, and financing a business is increased with every single piece of legislation that is past, to the extent that a person seeking to open a manufacturing plant, will have to meet all of the regulations imposed by government. So from the start you are at a severe deficit and in order to obtain enough finance you would have to sink further into debt, go into partnership with one of the major corporate interests, or eventually sell your business, along with the ideas of your business to one of the “captains of corporate industry”. With limited knowledge, which is information, you cannot compete with or challenge those who control information. Which is why corporate control has run rampant worldwide; they are the one who push for one world government and use political hacks from both parties to sell the theme to the population(s). On top of this, there is the Koch brothers who support maintain DACA; people such as they are dangerous and have infected the American Political Machine to the extent that it no longer serves the people of These United States of [North] America. There is science behind me typing These United States of [North] America. There is another United States of America called The Organization of American States (OAS; http://www.oas.org/en/member_states/authorities.asp). One World Government is what I OPPOSE and will continue even if it kills me physically.

    Here are some interesting quotes from Benito Mussolini:

    Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.



    Democracy is beautiful in theory; in practice it is a fallacy. You in America will see that some day.



    War is to man what maternity is to a woman. From a philosophical and doctrinal viewpoint, I do not believe in perpetual peace.


    I would love to get into a discussion about what Anarchy really is, based on what is proposed in the book “None Dare Call It Conspiracy”, and it is in tune with the topic of gleaning searches and url website managers such as GoDaddy. I was searching for something the other day using Google, and the results were the same, regardless to how I worded the search. One or two decades ago, the same type of search would have given me exactly what I was looking for. The involvement of SPLC, and other groups are in control and it goes deeper than George Soros. We are not living in a free society any longer. When I say that we are living in a Police States, I mean just that. I guess some people are looking for jack-booted thugs kicking down doors, but such is not the case. The jack-booted thugs wear fine suits, have enormous treasuries and are not detected by the naked-eye. When I was getting on Renee, I did it for a reason. I know that Men are not to debate nor argue with Women (I know, yadda yadda yadda; rolls eyes). America is NOT the America that I grew up in and it will never be the same, which is one of the reasons why I support Mr. Donald J. Trump and Mr. Michael R. Pence, they may not be able to bring this nation back to where it was when I was growing up, but at least they can try.
     
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  7. AlifQadr

    AlifQadr Well-Known Member

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    PlusUltra,
    You know as well as I do, that we are NOT fascists, when just want the overcrowding to stop, and to boot, when the illegals and DACA people, as well as the Cuban Refugees, the Haitian Boat People, and refugees from far and yon come here, they have displaced and will continue to displace people who are already here. I say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Immigration is NOT a right, it is a privilege.

     
  8. AlifQadr

    AlifQadr Well-Known Member

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    OOOPS, Plus Ultra, you are anti-Semitic and so am I because I clicked "like". :dual::roflol::roflol:
     
  9. AlifQadr

    AlifQadr Well-Known Member

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    Andrew Jackson,

    You have just admitted that you too, HATE FREEDOM. I do not care if a person believes in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or Rainbow Bright, it is THEIR RIGHT OF FREEDOM to believe in whatsoever he or she pleases, and it does not matter who approves or disapproves of said beliefs.
     
  10. AlifQadr

    AlifQadr Well-Known Member

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    I am lost. Does anyone other than me and Hoosier8, Pollycy, Plus Ultra, and a few more, realize that this is about F-R-E-E-D-O-M, and the motivation of some at the top Google, Inc. seeking to thwart F-R-E-E S-P-E-E-C-H? As Jim Nash stated, "The monopoly of a tiny few ( Google, Facebook etc) is going to lead to terrible trouble if governments don't get their acts together." This is one of the primary reasons why I detest government. The government of Self will never leave Man disappointed.
     
  11. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your mistake is believing google or anyone but the government can censor free speech. Google can't stop free speech, nor any of those oher groups. Only those who resort to the power of the gun have the power to censor free speech. This is why before any discussion can take place about who is ending free speech, it is necessary to understand free speech, what it is based on, who is its real threat, and how best to fight. The fact that is forum exist is proof free speech is alive and kicking. The government has one function concerning free speech, to protect it from the gun. As to the rest of the idiot gangs you mention, reality will out them for what they are. Though free speech is in trouble form the government not protecting it, it has nothing to fear from ideas others disagree with, rationally. Google is not a threat; its an annoyance,.

    Miss Ayn Rand: "Freedom of speech means freedom from interference, suppression or punitive action by the government—and nothing else. It does not mean the right to demand the financial support or the material means to express your views at the expense of other men who may not wish to support you. Freedom of speech includes the freedom not to agree, not to listen and not to support one’s own antagonists. A “right” does not include the material implementation of that right by other men; it includes only the freedom to earn that implementation by one’s own effort. Private citizens cannot use physical force or coercion; they cannot censor or suppress anyone’s views or publications. Only the government can do so. And censorship is a concept that pertains only to governmental action."--http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/free_speech.html

    One Last Point: A free speech monopoly is a fantasy, but even if it were a possibility, if earned by reason in the market place of ideas, it is morally justified, and a good thing not a bad thing. North Korea has nuclear ballistic missiles and we're worried about two-faced google controlling what we hear and read.. I'm on the floor dying laughing. It's like being scared Michael Moore is going to be the next Thomas Aquinas I just can't take such things seriously. Shirley Temple's "On the Good Ship Lollipop" is a greater danger to free speech and artist expression. Run for hills, the banality of everyday commonality is coming.
     
  12. AlifQadr

    AlifQadr Well-Known Member

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    Does not this website and many other websites have censorship and rules for posting on the site? Yes it does, so being that there exists rules for posting that contain what is permissible and what types of language can be used, there is limited speech, which is not free speech. Free Speech pertains to the ability and the actual practice of being able to say what you please, when you please without restriction. Ayn Rand is a book, I do not base my thoughts and opinions off of books of fiction, and I base my thoughts and opinions from real-life experience and actual facts. In the words of one of the founders, “If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
    George Washington

    Free speech in the general sense and term has nothing to do with “The Market Place”, but it deals with the real and immediate need to purvey and convey an idea or ideas of any given situation and discussion. From instance, the current discourse between you and me, we are both conveying our ideas on the subject of free speech, one to the other. In the course of this or any other discussion, both of us can either accept or reject the premise of the others view point. I am of the contention that as a natural order of existence, each and every one of us has the natural right, through means of our births and speaking ability to convey our thoughts to any other in a discussion, free from any rules or regulation, outside of self-imposed rules of courtesy and respect for the other, without the intervention of any outside entity or force. Governments cannot provide the criterion nor ca corporations, which are another entity divorced from ourselves. If in the course f any discussion, you or I choose to use unpleasantries, that is entirely at the behest of the one whom so chooses to use such aversion, but because of civility you are I choose to remain civil towards each other. I say all of this to reiterate the premise that speech is free for all to use without restriction or interference from outside intervention.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  13. AlifQadr

    AlifQadr Well-Known Member

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    “I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.”
    James Madison

    “Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech.”
    Benjamin Franklin, Silence Dogood, The Busy-Body, and Early Writings


    “Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear."

    [Special Message to the Congress on the Internal Security of the United States, August 8, 1950]”
    Harry Truman
     
  14. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is no such thing as "free for all" free speech or commercial free speech. There is only free speech, and only comes into play with respect to property rights. No property rights, no free speech. Only the government can stop free speech and only because it has the power of the gun. Or I can stop it, as my right as free man on my property. For example: You are in my house and start preaching what I consider to be an absurdity, the power of faith. Tired of your nonsense, I say "Shut the hell up and get the hell out of my house". As a free man I have exercised by right to my free speech in my house, and haven't, suppressed, stopped, or prevented you form exercising your right to free speech. You are sill free to go wherever you wish and spout whatever insanity you want, as long as your host wants to hear you.

    In my house you do no have the right to free speech, on my dime, you do not have the right to free speech, on my property, be it my garage, my car, my boat, my tape recorder, my whatever, you not not only don't have any free speech rights, you don have an individual rights at all except to leave and never come back.

    Miss Ayn Rand: "The Bill of Rights reads: “Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press . . . .” It does not demand that private citizens provide a microphone for the man who advocates their destruction, or a passkey for the burglar who seeks to rob them, or a knife for the murderer who wants to cut their throats."--http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/free_speech.html
     
  15. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Well-Known Member

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    Freedom of expression online is under threat, but this is not unconstitutional, administrators on this forum can lawfully censor what is posted here, just as Google's employees may. There is no right to access the internet or to communicate by such means and those who provide the means to communicate online may lawfully censor as they please. In theory the market will constrain businesses from excessive censorship as consumers will opt for providers which do not censor. However, when Google provides around 90% of all the communication, it's censorship ought to be more than a theoretical concern. It is not illegal for Google to censor, but it should be.
     
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  16. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Google is a free enterprise endeavor that has tremendous market share and almost an unstoppable greed to shape the future of tomorrow. but it doesn't have the gun. I choose not to use them where feasible, amd call them two face hypocrites whenever possible whose motto ought to be "Good? there is no good, only the expediency of the moment".

    They are the most despicable anti-intellectuals since Kant and his romantic pretenders. They lie, cheat, and manipulate with the best of them, especially their mentor, Barack Obama. But they win in the marketplace without force. If you truly want to beat them, leave your gun at home and come up with better ideas.

    Miss Ayn Rand:"If men of good will wish to come together for the purpose of upholding reason and establishing a rational society, they should begin by following the example of the cowboys in Western movies when the sheriff tells them at the door to a conference room: "Gentlemen, leave your guns outside."--https://www.noblesoul.com/orc/essays/guns.html

    "There are only two fundamental methods by which men can deal with one another: by reason or by force, by intellectual persuasion or by physical coercion, by directing to an opponent’s brain an argument—or a bullet.--http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/physical_force.html
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  17. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ah, you have no free speech in my house, the only right you have is to leave before I punch you in the nose, fascist.
     
  18. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Surprise surprise. Another good example of why we should start enforcing the monopoly, anti trust and anti competition laws on the books and stop letting these corporations get so big.
     
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  19. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Freedom of Speech is a constitutional right and high good that must also be protected against abuse.
    Freedom of Speech is not a "wild card" to insult others, discourage others because of skin color, religion or heritage, to attack in their dignity ... and certainly not to call for violence against others or even to miss-use it with goal to abolish this right!
     
  20. AlifQadr

    AlifQadr Well-Known Member

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    Your house is your private domain and I would never visit such an establishment that does not respect or acknowledge Free Speech and the ideal of free exchange of thoughts and ideas, and neither would I entertain an attempt at logical and civilized discussion with such a person as yourself because it would end in conflict with resolution. To call me a fascist because I practice, respect and acknowledge Free Will, of which Free Speech is a vital component, is not only completely non-applicable to me, but it demonstrates the outright contempt for Freedom on your part. There is no wonder why these United States of [North] America are in such turmoil, which has led to the current place in history where all of us who dwell within the borders of this nation find ourselves. Yes, the death of America is here and it was not brought by bombs, missiles, fighter jets, tanks or any other type of traditional modern military equipment. It has been brought about through an insidious preoccupation with domination. It, “America, has brought destruction upon herself by splitting her Godhead in two during the early part of last century.” as one Wiseman intelligently stated. The fall of America is here and is complete. This is why, whether you like him or not, which is irrelevant, there is such hatred presented towards President Donald J. Trump, it is the festering wound of divide that has taken precedence over working with him to find solutions to the ever growing troubles that currently plague America. This behavior has been in vogue since former president Ronald Wilson Reagan and has grown to the extent that it is at present, with no end in sight.
     
  21. AlifQadr

    AlifQadr Well-Known Member

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    Freedom of Speech is exactly that; the freedom to say whatever comes to mind, whether there is offense or no offense. The principle of Freedom of Speech is predicated on saying ‘that which is most unthinkable’ and not being persecuted by government or fellow citizenry because what has been said is ‘most unthinkable’. People confuse the principles of etiquette with legality, when it comes to freedom of speech. Granted in “polite” conversing, certain utterances may be considered most inappropriate, but “polite conversation”, in no manner dictates or should dictate the definition of Free Speech, in general and in particular. Imagine what this country would have been like had the Founders of this nation, included conversation etiquette when they presented their grievances to the King of England during the time of contemplate separation from the British Crown. Remember these words from Benjamin Franklin, “Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech.”
     
  22. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Another person claiming to advocate free speech while demanding another's be limited. I would quess you had a public education--taught ideas by the political power you vote in office. The most evil law in America? The anti-monopoly and anti-trust laws. They are the greatest threat to our freedoms, and is the biggest club used to shut up opposition to polices of the gang in power.

    Miss Ayn Rand: "The alleged purpose of the Antitrust laws was to protect competition; that purpose was based on the socialistic fallacy that a free, unregulated market will inevitably lead to the establishment of coercive monopolies. But, in fact, no coercive monopoly has ever been or ever can be established by means of free trade on a free market. Every coercive monopoly was created by government intervention into the economy: by special privileges, such as franchises or subsidies, which closed the entry of competitors into a given field, by legislative action. (For a full demonstration of this fact, I refer you to the works of the best economists.)--http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/monopoly.html
     
  23. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    When it comes to government control, free speech is a wild card and it does give me the right to say whatever I want no matter how vulgar and vile. The only restriction on free speech is the rights of others, specifically, their property rights. You are free to say whatever you wish in your house, in your paper, in your book, etc. However, the property rights of others protect them from having to listen to your bullshht. For example, you have every right to write a book advocating the slaughter of Muslims, the banning of their religion, the raping of their women, the murdering of their children, but nobody has to produce, buy, or sell your garbage. Property rights is the right that protects us from the tyrants and psychotics of the world. We don't need to suspend free speech to protect us from the offensive, we just need to think and act rationally.

    Miss Ayn Rand: "
    While people are clamoring about “economic rights,” the concept of political rights is vanishing. It is forgotten that the right of free speech means the freedom to advocate one’s views and to bear the possible consequences, including disagreement with others, opposition, unpopularity and lack of support. The political function of “the right of free speech” is to protect dissenters and unpopular minorities from forcible suppression—not to guarantee them the support, advantages and rewards of a popularity they have not gained.

    The Bill of Rights reads: “Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press . . . .” It does not demand that private citizens provide a microphone for the man who advocates their destruction, or a passkey for the burglar who seeks to rob them, or a knife for the murderer who wants to cut their throats."--http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/free_speech.html
     
  24. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Well-Known Member

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    The scale of Google's business and it's dominance in a sector so closely related to communication suggests to me a higher standard ought to apply to them than applies to some other business. It would bother me, as a Real Madrid fan if my barber banned criticism of it's historical rival, the Barcelona. Depending on how obnoxious he was, if I were not a fanatic for the 'Merengue' team, I would get my hair cut elsewhere. There are drinking establishments I've visited I won't go back to because of the offensive views of the barman. This is fine, not unusual with sports. In Britain I know of pubs that discriminate against Catholics, I wonder how it goes for heterosexuals in gay bars. These are small establishments catering to a particular clientele and I suppose lack of inclusiveness is part of their 'business model'.

    Google’s market share in desktop search engines in about 80%, for mobile devices this is around 95%. Google’s Android is the Operating System in nearly 90% of the world’s cell phones. Google’s share of internet advertising revenue is 40.7% in the US (Facebook’s is 19.7% and nobody else gets more than 5%). Google (actually “Alphabet”) is a very diverse conglomerate, they’re developing self-driving cars, drones, home security and climate control, venture capital investing, biotech, digital health services and a variety of other operations, last year they made $90.27 billion. When Google bans search returns (or demonetizes) content it deems offensive, there really isn’t much of an alternative. There is some alternative, but it seems insignificant.

    For those who dismiss concern claiming the market will decide overlook the lopsided situation in this market, it is hard to find an analogous situation, but imagine the electric company where you live decided not to provide electricity to people who had solar panels.
     
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  25. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I did not demand limits to freedom of speech ? Strawman.

    "Monopoly and anti trust laws are a threat to our freedom" ? This is patently absurd nonsense.

    You clearly know little about the economics of monopolism or the history of monopolies .. or history in general. The comments from Miss Rand are as stupid and ignorant as they come. You reverence to Rand as the "best economist" is pure nonsense. She is a paid shill for the Oligarchs. Elitist to the core.

    We have many Oligopolies (monopolies involving more than one company). These oligopolies have engaged in price fixing, collusion and various anti competitive practices.

    Every time some new regulation or tax law is being made the oligopoly is sitting at the table (and perhaps they have a right to be there). The problem is that the official that is supposed to be representing the little guy is either in the pocket of, or influenced by the Oligopoly. The oligopoly does not win every time but, over time, table after table, the rules of the game get skewed towards the Oligopoly to keep competition out.

    Big corporations have the ability to sell product at or even below cost to drive the little guys out of the market. Once they are gone prices rise. Walmart is famous for this but, it happens in many other industries.

    Numerous drug companies have been found guilty of price fixing.

    These massive mergers decrease competition. I worked in the chemical industry for decades. It used to be that the sector I was in had 8-10 competitors. There was competition for good salespeople and when you sold something you got paid well. Now there are 2 and they squeeze every penny out of the salesperson. If you don't like it ? too bad .. you only have one other company to go to and they do the same thing. This puts downward pressure on wages due to lack of labor competition.

    If that money goes to the salesperson it is spent in the local economy. Instead that money goes to some nameless faceless shareholder who may not even live in the country never mind spend in the local economy. In this way the cream is skimmed off the top.

    What's more .. is that the middle class is forced to pay the corporations share of the taxes.

    McDonalds needs roads, infrastructure, police and so on to operate. It used to be that the worker/corp share of the tax bill was split 50/50. Now it is 20/80.

    If you like being forced to pay McDonalds share of the tax bill you are welcome to this .. I sure a hell don't. At least if this was a private local company the extra profit would go back into the economy (although I would still have an issue but at least with some solace). Instead this money goes to some nameless faceless shareholder living who knows where.

    Quit reading unsupported claims by shills for the Oligarchs. Do you not realize how much money these folks spend to keep the masses ignorant ? How many false narratives are out there including the one's you have bought into. Unless you are a billionaire ... you are shooting yourself in the foot.

    I will finish with a bit of history. Extreme capitalism and extreme socialism (totalitarian communism) meet at the far end of the political spectrum. In both cases you get a few elite controlling all or most of the resources and means of production.

    It is simple math. You can not grow profits of corporations at rates well beyond inflation forever. Eventually you end up with a couple of companies owning everything. We are getting way to close to this. The international financiers own (Energy Oligopoly, Food Oligopoly, Banks, Finance, Insurance, Drugs) but also they own the media.

    It is the board of directors that has the power in a publicly traded company. These IF's sit on the boards of many companies at the same time and this is how control is exercised.
     
    Fred C Dobbs likes this.

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