God doesn't explain why there is not nothing.

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Channe, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    OK, explain it for us.
     
  2. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    You are not both. Apparently you do not know the definition of each.
     
  3. Channe

    Channe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Given we exist, I think the only explanation that makes sense is the Universe (time/space/matter/energy) is eternal and has always existed in one form or the other.
     
  4. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Have A Nice Day:???:
     
  5. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for accepting your defeat.

    The new Athiests are bitter and angry bigots. They just hate religion, Christians in particular. They have no standing when they claim "God does not exist." Truth is they do not know. That is an honest position. But when one relies on scientific evidence for proof, one knows science cannot provide it. They know this so they can choose to believe whatever they want so they can do whatever they want. This is the reason they do it. It is intellectually dishonest.
     
  6. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I would say you can be a theist and not bash infidels too... heck I would be happy if all theists did was bash infidels rather then kill or torture them

    fact is, any religion that tries to push their religion on people in a political sense will get push-back on a political board

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  7. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    Oh so your excuse for being bigoted toward religion is "they started it".....how mature *sarcasm*.
     
  8. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    no reason to lie about posters just cause they do not believe in a sky fairy, I have no issues with Christians, only with ones that try to use the government to force their religion on others or kill\harm others in the name of their religion - and that goes for ANY religion
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  9. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    Who does that? I see the left trying to force its beliefs on others. I do not see Christians doing that.
     
  10. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    When I say everything, I mean everything, not "everything science has considered". If the rules do not apply to God, then they are not rules, and we'd have to pin down the exact conditions for when they apply.

    Insofar that the argument I have made here applies "only to the physical universe...", then the cosmological argument also only applies to only the physical universe, and at that point, it's not much of an argument any more.
     
  11. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    your not looking very hard then.... just look at Roy Moore for an example of a Christian doing just that
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  12. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    That is just it, you cannot say "everything" because science does not know everything. Like I have explained before, people knew what gravity was before science gave it a name. They called it falling down. Again, science is not qualified to answer the question of the existence of a God. Therefore to say God does not exist because there is no scientific proof is not a valid claim.

    When it does come to scientific proof it can be interpreted different ways. Some people see what we know about the universe and say it was created. Others interpret it differently. It is all a matter of opinion. The best Athiests can do is to say they do not know, which makes the agnostic, not atheist. Atheist is an invalid position to take.
     
  13. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    Or I am not looking thru a biased prism like you.
     
  14. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    thou shalt not bear false witness seems to mean so little to some on the right
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  15. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    It is true that the lack of scientific proof does not mean there is no god, but that wasn't the argument that was made either. All I've argued is that the logic presented breaks one of the most persuasive arguments for believing that god exists.
     
  16. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    Oh, so suddenly you are a big supporter of Christianity....who knew?
     
  17. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    But what is your logic based on? Any scientific evidence is limited at best. All that is left is a philosophical choice to make.

    I have no problem with whether or not someone chooses to believe or not believe in God. Some will choose to not believe no matter what. When evidence is presented they just move the goal posts, that is why they cling to science as an excuse.

    I can prove some things do not exist if my claim includes an impossible standard for evidence. I can say if I look inside a can of soda and I do not see evidence of you then you do not exist. This is the same argument presented against the existence of God.

    I believe many people have Faith because it explains why they exist. I see nothing wrong with that.
     
  18. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    and your not a fan of the ten commandments now? who knew.....
     
  19. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    I never quoted them or said I wasn't a fan.
     
  20. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    nor did I say what you claimed, guess that makes us even.... see how that works
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  21. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    But you did quote the Bible...are you a closet Christian?
     
  22. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I was a Christian for much of my life.... I know the bible... just now I also know the truth
     
  23. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    That is great. Which church do you attend?
     
  24. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    The only scientific observation any of the related arguments requires is "the universe exists", which I think we can agree on to first order.

    To some extent, I would say what you have provided is an argument against the Aquinas argument. The Aquinas argument is based on the idea that "everything needs a cause", but that's a scientific claim, one based on observation. It might not be true in general, and if so, there is no need for God to explain the universe.

    I don't think the soda example is really a good simile to most of the arguments I have seen. I would say you looking in a soda can does in itself not provide evidence which justifies believing in me. However, in practice, you have lots of other evidence. The same is not necessarily true for God. If you had seen nothing outside the soda can for your entire life, would you be justified in believing in me? Probably not.

    Reality does not owe us a good way of finding things out. The common example is Russel's tea pot, a hypothetical teapot around the rings of Saturn. We have no way of proving such a tea pot exists, so in a way, the belief that such a teapot exists has an unfair disadvantage. Does that mean we are justified in believing it? Still no. Many atheists model their approach to god to that of Russel's tea pot. It's not necessarily the outright claim that no such thing exists, it's just saying that the claim of Russel's tea pot have no stronger justification than a samovar around Jupiter or a flower vase in the Oort cloud.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
  25. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    Again, science = the soda can. A contained system that does not explain everything cannot prove everything. The laws of the soda can prevent any proof of anything beyond what you see existing. Science is the same. Laws of our universe do not apply to God. Hence, any argument for or against the existence of God do not apply.

    That being said, I believe it is perfectly acceptable to say "God did it".
     

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