The debt is proof of our wealth

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by GodTom, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    As they say in Japan, "It's mirror time!"
    <yawn> Unlike you, I don't claim to have any authority.
    Or from those who would take it from you if there were no government defending it and you.
    As does anyone else in government's absence. Check out what happened to the self-defending landowners of Western Europe when Roman government disappeared in the 5th century. Do you think you are so much tougher than them? Don't make me laugh.
    Well, I suppose it beats acting like a grown-up...
    Get down on your knees and thank the government for keeping those who, unlike government, have no regard for your rights from taking it from you.
    You still haven't figured out the difference between property and forcible animal possession.
    They have no interest in "coming for you." You are merely suffering some sort of paranoid delusion. It's pretty common among the "Meeza hatesa gubmint" types.
    Funny, seems to me you are the one who is talking like a bully, and prefers targets so soft they cave to your threats of violence.
    And the society...
    Nature rules you, pal. Everything you do, if you want it to work, follows nature's rules. Not yours.
    Flat false. The unimproved, unmanaged value of land is determined by the services and infrastructure government provides, the opportunities and amenities the community provides, and the physical qualities nature provides at that location. An overgrown vacant lot that no one has managed for decades, but located in a big city, is typically worth orders of magnitude more than your "managed property."
    ROTFL!! This, from the guy who just claimed to be "ruling" nature...?

    You are priceless.
    Then you must be aware that it lists "misspelled" as a correct spelling. Google also returns nearly three times as many hits for "misspelled" as "misspelt."

    What was that you were saying about someone trying desperately to feel superior...?
    I was definitely born with advantages, but not privileges.
    The only people who resolve their disputes at gunpoint are bullies. And FYI, you are here very explicitly admitting that the basis of your "property right" is nothing but forcible appropriation. Any right that is founded on nothing but forcible appropriation is just as validly overturned by forcible appropriation.
    Sure you do. No one else would take your word for anything.
    As long as we're clear on that.
    Did you mean, "covet"?
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  2. james M

    james M Banned

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    court room requires one question and answer at a time for a reason. Do you know why? Above is an avalanche of gibberish that could never lead anywhere. Do you understand?
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  3. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Sure he would, when the utility to him of the market price exceeds that of the other people's rights to liberty. There has always been a brisk trade in other people's rights to liberty.
    He just has a different utility function from the buyer's. 1+1 = 2
     
  4. james M

    james M Banned

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    there has always been a brisk trade in everything where you have a free market. Land is not different from cars. It just depends if the thing is more valuable to you than the money.
     
  5. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    I have all the authority I need thanks.

    The Japanese take my word for everything. Fools that they are. Especially on the subject of spelling. Their's is a very deferential society.
    Hai, Sensei. As they say in Japan.


    I am happy to bully anyone who needs bullying. Well paid to do so even.

    I have no need to act as a grown up, because I am one.


    Forcible appropriation is indeed the deciding factor in any property dispute.
    You may choose to defer the use of force to another, the state police perhaps, your pet dog or a bailiff, or you may even elect to do it yourself. But it is the bottom line.

    An unmanaged property in a city centre is worth less than a managed one.
    Worth more or less than mine? That would rather depend on the specific properties.

    Google is not my dictionary. Nor is the correct spelling of misspelt, misspelled. (It's an irregular verb).
    English is perhaps not your native language.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  6. james M

    james M Banned

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    agreed, just like any buyer and seller land is no different as you've just demonstrated twice.
     
  7. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    No, your denial that landowning removes people's liberty rights is a slap to all the billions of innocent people who have been kept in conditions indistinguishable from slavery by greedy, evil, parasitic landowners, and the millions KILLED by them every year.
    You are only tired of being reminded that you cannot deny the fact that landowning removes people's rights to liberty and makes them the private property of the landowner.
    Again, you feel you have no choice but to make $#!+ up and falsely attribute it to me, in order to have something you can claim to deny.
    I'm also good with private ownership -- of what is privately produced. As you know perfectly well.

    Are you good with private ownership of everything? The sun? The alphabet? Slaves? Or only the things that can rightly be privately owned? Why not just be honest about it, and admit that our disagreement is over what can rightly be private property, not whether anything can?
    <sigh> You are aware of the fact that government administers our use of things like the oceans, the atmosphere, standards of measurement, etc., without owning them. Of course you are. You just have to pretend you are not aware of that fact, because you have already realized that it proves your beliefs are false and evil.

    Do you really think we would be better off with millions of private owners of standards of measurement, rather than one monopoly "owner"? REALLY???
    Right: you have forcibly removed that portion of my right to liberty, and require me to pay you for permission to do what I would be perfectly at liberty to do if only you were not stopping me. Exactly like a slave's owner owns his right to liberty and requires payment of labor for permission to do what the slave would otherwise be perfectly at liberty to do.
    Like the slave is completely unaffected except that like me, he is not allowed to exercise his liberty to do what he would otherwise be perfectly at liberty to do.
     
  8. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    One person owning a piece of land doesn't remove your right to liberty. That's hyperbolic, as is your equating land ownership with slavery.
     
  9. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Personification of land?

    Your liberty has limits mate.
    Typically those limits = other peoples liberty.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  10. james M

    james M Banned

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    wonderful example of liberal reasoning? if only a libNazi govt owned all the land it would be distributed properly and millions of lives could be saved!
     
  11. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Silliness. There is no such thing as "libNazi"; land cannot rightly be owned; and there are many more ways for government to misadminister possession and use of land, killing millions, than there are ways to do it justly, saving millions.
     
  12. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Not sure I'm looking for your justice. Sorry.
    Neither do I have any faith in your ability to save millions with my possessions, Jesus.

    What difference land governed by you or some other stranger?
    None to me. I govern my own.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  13. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    No. Simple identification of the fact that owning land is the same as owning a little slice of others' rights to liberty: the liberty to use that land, liberty they would otherwise have had.
    But your entitlement doesn't, when it forcibly removes my right to liberty?
    There can be no such thing as liberty to deprive others of their liberty. And that is exactly what landowners do, just as surely as slave owners. The only difference is that slave owners remove others' rights to liberty one person at a time, landowners do it one right at a time.
     
  14. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    So you advocate that anyone can just use any land they want willy-nilly? Everyone would have all their liberty and be able to use any land they want?
     
  15. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    The Federal debt continues to grow and accelerate under far right Trump. Since the forum right wingers used to hate this under Obama, let us hear them roundly condemn Trump for making a bigger mess of all this.
     
  16. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    There can be no free market where people's rights to liberty are what is being traded.
    It is crucially different, as any child knows.
    By that "logic," land and cars are no different from slaves.
     
  17. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Your wish to take liberties is noted.

    Your wish to be free to steal is noted and not welcomed.

    Neither is your liberty to rape or murder and indeed a great many other anti-social acts.
    Wallow in the injustice of it all. Be all aggrieved. What a victim of society you are.
    So unfairly repressed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  18. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    You are aware that that is not what I advocate. I advocate those who exclude others from land making just compensation to the community of those thus excluded -- which is also the community implementing the exclusion.
    No, they would have liberty to use any land no one else was willing to pay to use, and would have to make just compensation to the community for supermarginal land they wanted to exclude others from (less a modest universal individual exemption amount).
     
  19. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    But they can't exclude me from any land. That would be stealing my right to liberty.
     
  20. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Go players take more liberties ;^) I just want to EXERCISE my right to liberty without paying a greedy, privileged parasite for PERMISSION.
    Why do you feel you have to resort to lying about me?

    Oh, wait a minute, that's right: you have no facts or arguments to offer, so you have no choice.

    The landowner is the one doing the stealing, champ, and I will thank you to remember it.
    That's not liberty, as it would forcibly deprive others of what they would otherwise have, which is the basic form of all genuine abrogations of rights -- e.g., landowning. As already proved.
    Like forcibly depriving others of their liberty to sustain themselves using what nature provided, unless they meet your extortion demands. I.e., landowning.
    Society is the victim, of landowner greed and parasitism.
    And so inconveniently aware of it.
     
  21. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    You don't have permission to use my land. I don't want your money.

    I may be willing to contribute towards a prison for you. Your very own cell. You won't have to pay to use it, society will do that for you.



    Don't respect our rights to liberty? No reason why we should respect yours.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  22. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    The liberty to use any land non-exclusively is a right in pre-agricultural societies, not in more advanced ones where there is rightful property in significant fixed improvements.
    Not if it is justly compensated both by the excluder to the community of those excluded and by that community to those excluded. Every mature adult (might not include you) knows that individual liberty rights cannot be unconditional or inviolable in a social context. The point is to secure and reconcile everyone's rights and make the inevitable compromises compatible with individual liberty and justice by making just compensation whenever rights are abrogated.
     
  23. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    I'm thinking the excluded will be you. Since you don't share a common morality system with the rest of us.
    Expect to be making a lot of compromises.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  24. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    So your right to liberty is not unconditional or inviolable. Got it. I'll remember that the next time you say a landowner is violating your right to liberty.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  25. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    LOL! Why would I need your "permission" to exercise my right to liberty and use the land nature put there with no help from you or any previous self-styled "landowner"? What on earth makes you imagine it is somehow "your" land, any more than slave owners thought their slaves were "their" slaves? Is your claim based on ANYTHING but sheer aggressive, violent coercion? Is it also "your" ocean if you claim it, and threaten others with your little gun if they exercise their liberty rights to use it without your permission? "Your" sun?

    You have a long way to go before you will understand what genuine, valid property rights are based on.
    Hehe. The greed of the welfare chiseler for unearned wealth is to the greed of the landowner as the brightness of the moon is to the brightness of the sun.
    Right back atcha, champ. Except that when society takes down greedy, privileged, landowning parasites, prison is typically not considered a drastic enough remedy. 'Nuff said.
    Right back atcha, champ. But unlike you, I have actual reason:

    You are merely claiming that your right to liberty includes the liberty to deprive me of liberty without making just compensation. That is the credo of the thief, the parasite, the slaver. Surprise!
     

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