Is there a Right to own a gun; Ethics of Gun Ownership

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by An Taibhse, Jan 29, 2018.

  1. TheResister

    TheResister Banned

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    OMG. Let me tell you some facts. Years ago the right told us the only thing they had against the little brown people from south of the border is that they came in here "illegally." So, my thinking was to show people how to come in legally, take that issue off the table, and move forward on the One World Government, gun control, National ID, etc.

    I ended up spending six years working in immigration law. Let me assure you that after that experience, if I want to come or go, the facts are that I can do so with relative success and there isn't much of a chance Uncle Scam can do anything to change the odds - walls, National ID, etc.

    Millions of people come into this country and building walls would only profit companies that sell tunneling equipment.

    You're under this delusion that government is God. You and I disagree. The fact that they have all these laws, more people in prison in the U.S. than in any country on any planet, and still people capable of ignoring this government God you've created should tell you something.

    NONE of this has any bearing on the ethics of gun ownership.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  2. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Still...feeding...the...troll...
     
  3. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    The analogy is perfect. Be polite at the border, answer the questions asked of you and present your documentation BEFORE you exercise your right to return to this country. To do something similiar for guns makes sense.
     
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  4. TheResister

    TheResister Banned

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    I'm sure those who like to criticize me will continue to be inconsistent and do exactly as you say.

    Then again, most are too lazy to study the principles of stare decisis.
     
  5. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    The facts are the facts counselor
     
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  6. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Out the other side of their mouths they will tell you the right to life includes not just the right to health care, but the right to health care paid for by someone else.
     
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  7. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I've explained it to you but unfortunately, it upset you. I don't want to go through it all over again. I am trying to be kind here. Isn't that what we agreed?
     
  8. Rucker61

    Rucker61 Well-Known Member

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    Can you reference the post that contains the explanation?
     
  9. TheResister

    TheResister Banned

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    So let me sum it up for you and you won't need to waste time on this any longer:

    FACT: America was built upon the presupposition that all men have unalienable Rights

    FACT: An unalienable Right is a Right that is bestowed upon you at birth by your Creator (your God, whomever you deem that to be)

    FACT: In order to appease all sides concerned the terminology about inherent, natural, etc. were / are used interchangeably with unalienable

    FACT: While the terms inalienable and unalienable were the same, grammatically speaking, the American courts applied different definitions to each of them

    FACT: In American jurisprudence unalienable / inherent / natural / God given Rights cannot be aliened; inalienable rights CAN be aliened if the person holding such rights consents to it

    FACT: ONE of the ways the government expanded its powers over the individual was the illegal ratification of the 14th Amendment which recognizes privileges and immunities; it never addresses your unalienable Rights. The 14th Amendment created two classes of citizens: Preamble and 14th Amendment citizens

    FACT
    : The objective of the government has been to tell you that you had "rights" and then claiming it could take those "rights" AND that you could forfeit your "rights" if you so consented...But which "rights" could you consent to forfeit and what "rights" were subject to a grant by the government? The fact is, that is inalienable rights

    FACT: The government has the power to do a lot of things. Many times they lack the authority

    FACT: When the right adopted the vocabulary of the left (especially with their incessant ignorance of arguing with me about inalienable versus unalienable Rights) they unwittingly stipulated to your arguments that we have no rights. For, as the courts ruled, you can forfeit and the government can grant an inalienable right, but they NOR you will not find one case to support the proposition that the government has any jurisdiction over an unalienable Right. Those on the right who insist on using the word inalienable are now stuck with the case precedents which govern inalienable rights

    FACT: I have unalienable Rights because I am willing to claim them as per the methodology laid out by the founding fathers. Yeah, you might be able to take rights from me through power and force, but I can retake those unalienable Rights that were unconstitutionally taken - even if it must be done by force.

    My critics on the pro-gun side lose to you because they do not understand how their Rights were taken.

    "The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of public liberty.

    ...A just estimate of that love of power, and proneness to abuse it, which predominates in the human heart, is sufficient to satisfy us of the truth of this position. The necessity of reciprocal checks in the exercise of political power, by dividing and distributing it into different depositaries, and constituting each the guardian of the public weal against invasions by the others, has been evinced by experiments ancient and modern; some of them in our country and under our own eyes. To preserve them must be as necessary as to institute them. If, in the opinion of the people, the distribution or modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed. The precedent must always greatly overbalance in permanent evil any partial or transient benefit, which the use can at any time yield
    ." President George Washington, Farewell Address

    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp
     
  10. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    That's nice

    Fact: Unalienable rights do not exist outside of a belief system and rights are granted by the government thru the people.
     
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  11. TheResister

    TheResister Banned

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    FACT: Our system of jurisprudence is predicated upon the presupposition that unalienable Rights are bestowed upon us at birth by a Creator (our God, whomever we deem that to be.)

    Your incessant B.S. is irrelevant in this regard. Okay, great. You don't believe the presupposition. I got that over 20000 posts ago in the years you've been rehashing the same skeet. Grow up son and move the Hell forward.

    Our country was built upon a presupposition. You can disbelieve it until Hell freezes over. That is your Right - and I'd fight to the death to defend your Right to disbelieve in that presupposition.

    At the same time, the Constitution is much like a contract and if the government fails to enforce and guarantee those Rights (especially those in the Bill of Rights) as was originally and intended, then we, the people, are under NO OBLIGATION TO THIS COUNTRY FOR ANYTHING.

    That, son, is WHY we have a Second Amendment and you can shove your opinion where the sun don't shine because all your banter will never change the FACTS nor the inevitability of what's going to happen. If you choose the tyranny of mobocracy, good luck.

    I see no point in beating a dead horse. You've made your point; I've made mine.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  12. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    I don't believe in your mythology. And I will point it out whenever I am challenged on it. And there is no need to take this so personally. Try decaf. It may help you calm down
     
  13. TheResister

    TheResister Banned

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    When you can prove something to be a "myth," get back to me. That presupposition is serving you well. Without a guaranteed Right to free expression, someone would have shut you down long ago. So, you can keep disbelieving while you exercise the Rights our forefathers fought, bled, and died to secure for your ungrateful arse.
     
  14. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    You have rights. They are just not unalienable. That is a belief only.

    Ungrateful? That is freaking hilarious
     
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  15. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    Respectfully, what you "explained" was in angry, over-the-top language not supported by certain facts. Okay? Look, I get what you've been through and that your visceral reactions to this issue have created a certain viewpoint in you. I have a lot of friends and family members who are military veterans of different nations and saw combat everywhere from Vietnam to Afghanistan; some see things more like you, some not so much. I'm going to put up some comments, based on your prior comments; please remember I'm responding in hopes of initiating respectful dialogue, not to be offensive.

    From my point of view, this is not a "stupid game". Self-defense is a multi-faceted subject with many different layers; from the type of attack to the type of assailant to the type of victim. An elderly and frail person is going to need different tools to be effective in self-defense than a 200 pound martial arts expert... and there are some situations where survival itself can turn on access to very specific tools.

    This scenario is based in something out of bad Hollywood fiction and not in real world situations. It reveals an astonishing (and unjustifiable) contempt for Americans in general that has about zero basis in reality. Heck, one of my firearms instructors from law enforcement carries a matchbook with a $10 bill rubberbanded to it; if he were ever to be confronted in plain clothes he's got the plan to flip them the matchbook and say something along the lines of: "Have a drink on me" as he walks away. The easiest fight to win is the one you don't get into in the first place, and I'm fully supportive of that idea. But.... sometimes there are circumstances where walking away is what will get you killed.

    Seriously, I don't know where you get this perception. I know you've lived in the U.S, and Lord knows I haven't lived everywhere it's possible to live, but this reads like a bad episode of "Myths and Legends" than an argument based on fact, and there sure as Hell aren't shootouts in the streets over parking spaces. I'm a pretty well-educated guy, believe it or not. I've also spent most of my life in the law-enforcement and security fields. I'm not interested in being a "hero" and I don't try to intimidate people. I also don't role-play my way through my life. In fact, I tend to prefer an unfailingly polite and good natured mien when I'm walking around in public. But I'm alive today because I had a gun and knew how to use it, and I recognize the life-saving utility intrinsic to a responsibly carried and utilized defensive sidearm even if you can't.
     
  16. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    With all due respect, it's easy to proclaim "Fact" when it's convenient to your position.

    What IS a fact is that our entire system of government is based on the idea that unalienable rights DO exist, and rights are preexisting. You don't have to like it, but that is the unarguable reality. If you are an atheist, your right to have your beliefs respected is codified in law. But an atheistic view that rights are nothing but privileges granted by government is not consistent with the Constitution.
     
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  17. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    I hear what you are saying. I agree our entire system is based on beliefs. That has been my point all along. But the Jew, Christian and Muslim also has a system based on beliefs. That does not make them facts
     
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  18. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Especially in that no language to that effect can be found in the constitution or federal law.
     
  19. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    The beliefs remain the beliefs
     
  20. TheResister

    TheResister Banned

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    If they weren't unalienable, you would have been shut down 20,000 posts back. Is that what it boils down to? Are too. Are not. Are too. Didn't your mother pay you much attention as a child?

    My Rights are unalienable. If you don't like it or don't believe it, try taking one away from me.

    Would you now like to agree to disagree or do you need daily babysitting? I've tried to be respectful of your opinions. Now it's time for you to just **** and move on. If you can respect me, leave me alone.

    I'll spell it out for you one more time in fifth grade language.

    America was founded on the presupposition of unalienable Rights. Americans believe in those Rights; communist heathen and atheists don't. That is their prerogative. But since those Rights are guaranteed, whether you think they exist or not is irrelevant and nobody that disagrees with you gives a rip whether you agree or not. If you trespass on those Rights, then you have violated the Constitution and would be a criminal. If the government does it, it then gives cause to call them on the guarantee - going through the legal / political process and ending in extraordinary actions designed to preserve and protect those unalienable Rights that have been paid for by the blood and sacrifice of those who secured them.

    If you don't like it... TSVC
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  21. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    Agreed; but until the Constitution is amended or altered to change how it defines the source of our rights we remain in possession of the same unalienable rights our Founders believed in, and we have to treat them as such IMHO.
     
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  22. Rucker61

    Rucker61 Well-Known Member

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    That's not an atheistic view, regardless of the beliefs of the opposition here.
     
  23. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    You remain in possession of your BELIEF that those rights are unalienable. You may treat them as such and the law may treat them as such and you may consider them to be true. But they remain a belief.
     
  24. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Do you think your personal insults have some affect on me other than to cause laughter? They are a concession of your frustration because you don't have the facts. I accept your concession. You lose. Now....attack away. It is hilarious.
     
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  25. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    But a belief supported by constitutional law and precedent.
     

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