Palestine: Fact or fiction.

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by Grugore, Feb 24, 2018.

  1. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    It is relevant as far as the Palestinians are concerned.

    It shows nothing of the sort.

    There is no people that "came from the sea". Palestinians are not sea creatures: The possibility you entertain is based on pottery, when we know how much of a mercantile people the Phoenicians were, it's hardly surprising. If it wasn't enough, this hypothsesis (because it is but one) would take form in 1200 BC, around the advent of the Jewish faith. It hardly is relevant.

    What about the hypothesis about the non-Sephardim jews in Israel being in fact converted Khazars?

    The map is from the 9th century BC. There was no united kingdom of Israel, IMO. The Canaanite didn't "vanished", they simply become Jews, Philistines, Phoenicians, Edomites etc in time. Don't believe bible tripe.

    Good thing because archeological facts tend to disagree with the bible, big time. IMO the bible was wrtten around the time of the exile, beginning in 732 BC. Forget about the Israeli coming out of Egypt and massacring all Canaanites that ever lived in the levant. It is a fable.

    Jews are an etnoreligion.

    We disagree about what forms a people. I still say it's common history, language and culture, you say it's a flag, borders and a national anthem (that Palestinians have, anyway). I say the Roma, or any of the NA natives nations, are a people, you say they are not. You are wrong.

    And, you are above ten years-old are you? I am a Wikipedia editor (my speciality are naval pages - same moniker); Go ahead and do it - edit a page. Then tell me what happened shortly afterwards. Not game? I'll tell you what will happen: if your edit isn't comfirmed by accepted sources (not your own research and opinions) and done alongside the editing rules (which are severe and subtle), the life of your edit will be measured in hours, if not minutes. Get ready to debate it. Just take any Wikipedia page and look at the "talk" folder to see what edits and debates about them look like. It's quite scholarly rather than partisan. This board is smallfry in comparison, let me tell you. Kids' stuff, really.

    Wikipedia is where to start when doing any kind of research - all of the references are given down the page. I can tell you it's much more objective than many books that used to pass for encyclopedies, as the authors are many and the page altered according to the latest finds.

    Anyway, sorry for the disgression.

    ... And what kind of alternate "history" would that be? What are your sources?
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  2. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    We can post soundtracks for the thread? Kewl!

     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  3. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    There is a difference between illegal and legal, you know.

    Are you saying there is no such thing as Iraqis, Egypteans, Syrians, Libyans and so on There's only "Palestinian nation"?

    The Philistinies came from the area of the Agean Sea. Greece is located in that area. If yo are saying that the "Palestinian" are the descendants of the Philistines, then you are saying that the "Palestinians" belong to the area of the Agean Sea, not to the Land of Israel.

    There is no such thing "Sephardim Jews", nor "Ashkenazim Jews" since the Inquisition and the Deportation of the Jews of Spain and Portugal.

    I'm talkin g about the 10th century BC, the time when the untied kingdom of Israel was existed. In the 9th century the untied kingdom wasno longer, and it got devided into two. Moreover, Adom, Ammon, Aram, Moab are not Canaanites.

    I dont care about the bible.
    Just for you know, the BIble was started combine all the different books that exist in the bible in the 6th century BC, not in the 8th century BC.

    Judaism is religion, not a nation.All what is uniting the Jews in America and the Jews in Frence, Britain, Italy, Israel etc. is their religion. All thos Jewish have deifferent ethnicity such as French, Italitan, British, American so on.

    I'm also talking about culture and language. All the Arabs that you call "Palestinains" have different culture, history and so on because of their differnet nationality. I'm not talking about borders and flags.

    I found along the years I did use Wikipedia alot of mistakes, and alot of sources that do not talking about the subjet at hand. Therefore, I stopped believing Wikipedia. I believe more sources of experts.
    Also when you enter Wikipedia, it says to you that anyone can write there, which also hurting the relaibility of the site.

    Official documents of Britain from the time they had mandate over that land, and documented the illegal enteries to this land from the Arab countries. As I showed earlier.
     
  4. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Among the mistakes & flawed opinions in your post is the notion that the Canaanites were eliminated from the region:
    I've been to Southern Lebanon where most of the displaced Palestinians currently reside. the porous, foreign drawn borders creating Iraq, Jordan, Syria are not recognized as static as those borders in the West.
    Additionally, I wandered throughout the Islamic Mid East for 10 - 11 months & came to know many of its fine people.
    The people of that region are all the same except for Religious & tribal affiliations. They think of themselves as Arabs or Muslims first & then by nationality.
    Levantine Arabs, however, are more genetically connected to the Canaanites than Arabs further away & the recently arrived, Foreign Jews.
    Up until foreign Jews began to arrive in Palestine in the 1880, Jews comprised only 2% - 3% of Palestine's population. Many native Jews either intermarried with other Levantine non Jews or converted to other religions.
    I don't doubt that some Jews, too are descended from the Canaanites but their numbers must be infinitesimal.

    I feel an additional flawed opinion in your Post is:
    I don't think that either of us can speak for individual Jews but, apparently, many Jews consider themselves part of Judea, act as a nation & in the case I cited(2) boycotted as a nation.

    I'm sorry that I don't have time a the moment to address your multiple points but look forward to your response.



    (1) "Bible says Canaanites were wiped out by Israelites but scientists just found their descendants living in Lebanon"


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...cendants-discovered-science-dna-a7862936.html

    EXCERPT "For God had ordered the Israelites to slaughter the apparently sinful Canaanites, saying: “You shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them.” And, according to a passage in the Old Testament's Book of Joshua, they did just that:

    “Thus Joshua struck all the land, the hill country and the Negev and the lowland and the slopes and all their kings. He left no survivor, but he utterly destroyed all who breathed, just as the Lord, the God of Israel, had commanded…. He left nothing undone of all that the Lord had commanded Moses.” (Joshua. 10:40, 11:15)

    However, a new genetic study has found that the Canaanites actually managed to survive this purge of their traditional homeland, passing on their DNA over the centuries to their numerous descendants in modern-day Lebanon."CONTINUED



    (2) "Jews Declare War on Germany 1933"
    https://archive.org/stream/JewsDeclareWarOnGermany1933/JewsDeclareWarOnGermany1933_djvu.txt
    EXCERPT "Jews Of All The World Unite..."
    "Judea Declares War on Germany!" - Daily Express headline, March 24, 1933.
    "Judea Declares War on Germany! Jews of all the World Unite! Boycott of German Goods!
    Mass Demonstrations!" - These were all headlines in the Daily Express on March 24, 1933.
    "The Israeli people around the world declare economic and financial war against Germany.
    Fourteen million Jews stand together as one man, to declare war against Germany."CONTINUED
     
  5. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    I dropped the redundant parts, those I already answered and for which you just ignored the response. ;-)

    Not much of a difference if you are Palestinian; Laws are the affair of men, and in that time these men were zionists. The laws they made were convient for Jewish immigration, to the detriment of the local population which was stabbed in the back as a reward for their alliance against the Ottomans in WWI.

    Looks like there was no "United kingdom of Israel":

    It is generally accepted that a "House of David" existed but many believe that David could have only been the monarch or chieftain of Judah, and that the northern kingdom was a separate development. According to Israel Finkelstein and Neil Silberman, authors of The Bible Unearthed, the idea of a united monarchy is not accurate history but rather "creative expressions of a powerful religious reform movement," possibly "based on certain historical kernels. "Although in a later book Finkelstein and Silberman do accept that David and Solomon were real kings of Judah about the 10th century B.C, they cite that the earliest independent reference to the Kingdom of Israel is about 890 B.C, while for that of Judah is about 750 B.C. This is supported by Tubb, who argues that the United Monarchy is a created Golden Age written during the Exile. He accepts the historicity of David and Solomon but cautions that "They must be seen, however, as local folk heroes and not as rulers of international status."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(united_monarchy)#Archaeological_record

    And, Israelites, Judeans, Samaritans, Edomites, Moabites, Ammonites and Phoenicians were all Canaanites.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Semitic-speaking_peoples#Classical_antiquity


    More or less. Combined some texts and created others, during the Exile. Do you really believe Moses existed, let alone his authorship of the five first books?

    About being a "nation":

    A nation is a stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, ethnicity or psychological make-up manifested in a common culture. A nation is distinct from a people, and is more abstract, and more overtly political than an ethnic group. It is a cultural-political community that has become conscious of its autonomy, unity, and particular interests.

    Black's Law Dictionary defines a nation as: "A people, or aggregation of men, existing in the form of an organized jural society, usually inhabiting a distinct portion of the earth, speaking the same language, using the same customs, possessing historic continuity, and distinguished from other like groups by their racial origin and characteristics, and generally, but not necessarily, living under the same government and sovereignty."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation


    The sources given are not made up by Wikipedia. Wikipedia is more akin to a librarian than a reporter. Case in point: check out the sources given in this post by checking them on their Wikipedia pages. You'll see they're impeccable.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  6. shanners

    shanners Newly Registered

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    Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French.

    - M.K. Gandhi, November 1938
     
  7. shanners

    shanners Newly Registered

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    In December 1945 and January 1946, the British Mandate authorities carried out an extensive survey of Palestine, in support of the work of the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine. The results were published in the Survey of Palestine, which can be seen here:

    http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Books/Story831.html

    In summary, Palestinian Arabs were producing:

    92% of Palestine’s grain
    86% of its grapes
    99% of its olives
    77% of its vegetables
    95% of its melons
    99% of its tobacco
    60% of its bananas.

    Not to mention the famous Jaffa oranges.

    Still think Palestinians didn't make the desert bloom?
     
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  8. RoccoR

    RoccoR Well-Known Member Donor

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    Palestine: Fact or fiction.
    ※→ shanners, et al,

    Yes, this "Survey of Palestine" was research material. The Government of Palestinian (was under Mandate to the British Government). The "Short Title Term" for the territory was defined by the first Palestine Order in Council (League of Nations):

    Excerpt • Palestine Order in Council.png
    Prior to the Termination of the Mandate, the term "Palestine" throughout the Mandate Period (as you can see) was short for: "territories to which the Mandate applies." The PRINCIPLE ISSUE is not about production or the agricultural expertise, but about the creation of a Jewish National Home. Everything else is merely a side-show.

    (COMMENT)

    What is even more interesting is the explanation by the British Government: MEMORANDUM “A” •• "LEGAL MEANING OF THE “TERMINATION OF THE MANDATE” •• A/AC.21/UK/42 25 February 1948.


    Palestine is today a legal entity but it is not a sovereign state. Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs.

    2. After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for its administration will, however, have changed.

    3. Where the sovereignty of Palestine lies at the present time in a disputed and perhaps academic legal question about which writers have expressed a number of different conclusions. Where the sovereignty of Palestine will lie after the 15th May, 1948; is perhaps also a question on which different views will be held but so far as His Majesty’s Government are aware, it is a question which it is unnecessary to answer in connection with any practical issues.

    4. After the 15th May, 1948, the United Nations Commission will be the Government of Palestine. It does not seem very material whether it is considered to be the de facto or the de jure Government. In any case, its title to be the Government of Palestine will rest on the resolution of the General Assembly.

    5. His Majesty’s Government will recognise the United Nations Commission as the authority with which to make an agreement regarding the transfer of the assets of the Government of Palestine.

    6. The present employees of the Palestine Administration are the servants of the Crown of the United Kingdom in right of its Government of Palestine. The existing contracts of employment of such employees are automatically terminated when His Majesty ceases to be responsible for the government of Palestine because they never agreed to serve any other authority than. His Majesty:

    7. Subject to the views set out above on the legal position and the action necessarily following from those views, all proper assistance will be given to the Commission in making arrangements for continuing the employment of all officials in office on the same terms as they enjoy at present and with the same rights, on the understanding that it will be open to the officials concerned voluntarily to accept or refuse any offer made by the Commission.

    And as we know now, the Provisional Government announced that the National Council declared the independence of the Jewish State at mid-night 14/15 May (See: S/747 16 May 1948). And that was, in effect, the establishment of a self-governing institution that the prior "legal entity" lacked. As you know, the Arab Higher Committee declined to participate (on invitation by the UN Palestine Commission) in the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" ⇒ and communicated the following telegraphic response was received by the Secretary-General on 19 January 1948:

    • “ARAB HIGHER COMMITTEE IS DETERMINED PERSIST IN REJECTION PARTITION AND IN REFUSAL RECOGNIZE UNO RESOLUTION THIS RESPECT AND ANYTHING DERIVING THEREFROM. FOR THESE REASONS IT IS UNABLE ACCEPT INVITATION”
    No matter what the reference materials (including the Survey) about other issues, concerns and topics pertaining to the territories, the issue of self-governance through the right of the self-determination by the Jewish people ⇒ stands; both challenged and successfully defended more than once. While the Arab Palestinians have repeatedly declined to assume a peaceful and productive posture with Israel, the permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel was established by Article II of the 1979 Treaty --- and --- the international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited by Article III of the 1994 Peace Treaty. While the Palestinian Negotiation Affairs Department (PLO-NAD) considers the (so called) 1967 border, which is "defined as the 1949 Armistice Line along with all legal modification thereto up to June 4th 1967" --- the PLO was not technically a party to the conflict and did not then and has not to this date, established an "Armistice Agreement" with Israel. The Peace Treaties (of 1979 and 1994) dissolved the Armistice Agreements pertaining to the occupied Palestinian territories (oPt). Article XII of both Armistice Agreements (Israel with Egypt and Jordan) stipulates that the Armistice "shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved." (Remembering that the Palestinians were not a party to the agreements..)

    Most Respectfully,
    R
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
  9. shanners

    shanners Newly Registered

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    Perhaps I should've trimmed my reply to the OP (like I've done here) but I was commenting on point 5, "What constituted the basis of its economy?"

    What you've raised is a different topic, although related. Apologies if I've caused any confusion.
     
  10. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Can you name those 22 large Arab countries please?
     
  11. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    In ancient times in Southern lebanon were the canaanites alongside the Phoenicians, which after the canaanites vanished from this territory (which means they merged with other people which live at that time, and the Phoencians continued lived after the merging of the Canaanites to other nations.
    The Phoenicians maybe are semite, but rea not among the Canaanite tribes.

    You dont need to be jewish for you to be able to speak and say that Judaism is not a nation, but merley a religion.

    Looking forward for your future comments about my points.



    As archeaology is showing us, The Canaanites and references for the existance of the Canaanites were no longer existed since 10th century BC. (The Canaanites not were vanished due to war, but the Canaanites merged with other nations that existed alongside them at ancient times)


    To which part of my previous comment it is regarding? As far as I know I didnt speak about Germany of 1933 in my last comment.
     
  12. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As we know, the UN general Assembly votes are not legally binding! Zionist jews declared unilateral independence on the land they had stolen.
     
  13. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    Britain did not really want to deal with the illegal immigration of the Arabs to the Land of Israel, as It occur at that time, and as official documents of Britain shows.
    This comment does not contradict in any menner my comment and the fact that there was a ilicit immigration of Arabs to the Land of Israel.

    Khirbet Kaifah, and the Carbon-14 testing that made on the findings that were found on that site contradict such notion. Even alot of Archeaologists that said that there was no such thing as "kingdom of David" changed their mind, and said that there was indeed a kingdom of David. This change of mind of such Archeaologists came after what was been found in Khirbet kaifah.




    Not all the semites are Canaanites. Edomites, Moabites, Ammonites were Canaanites, but Israelites,Judeans, Samaritans and Phoenicians were not Canaanites.
    The origion of the Phoenicians was different from the origion of the Canaanites. The Israelites were semites, but they werent pagans, as the Canaanites were. Furtheremore, Canaanites are people that their origion is Cnaan. The Israelites came to Cnaan, from abroad, as the Phoenicians. which means, the Isralites and the Phoenicians are not Canaanites.



    I dont believe that Moses existed, as I dont believe that Jesus and Muhammad existed.

    Does not contradict the notion that Judaism is not a nation, but merley a religion.

    Does not contradict that I found along the years I did use Wikipedia alot of mistakes, and alot of sources that do not talking about the subjet at hand. Therefore, I stopped believing Wikipedia. I believe more sources of experts.
    Also when you enter Wikipedia, it says to you that anyone can write there, which also hurting the relaibility of the site.
     
  14. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Source?

    And why cannot you be both Arab and Jew?
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
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  15. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    That besides, nobody contradicted. We just told you that this immigration was insignificant when compared to the Jewish one.

    It isn't the existance of David that is questionnable; It is the existance of a United Kingdom of Israel:

    Discoveries at Khirbet Qeiyafa are significant to the debate on archaeological evidence and historicity of the biblical account of the United Monarchy at the beginning of Iron Age II. (...) As no archaeological finds were found that could corroborate claims of the existence of a magnificent biblical kingdom, various scholars have advanced the opinion that the kingdom was no more than a small tribal entity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khirbet_Qeiyafa#Debate_on_United_Monarchy


    Sorry - Nothing in there is true. What, you think the Israelites originated from Egypt, then killed all the other semite people living in the Levant, beginning with the Canaanites, then all of the others, then got all deported by the Romans? With all due respects it would be touchingly naive.

    Besides, if Jews came from Egypt, how come they can claim that Israel is their homeland today? Wouldn't that be rather Egypt?

    Well, you must believe in the former a little I guess, since it's the version of "history" that you seem to espouse.

    Being Jewish is an ethnoreligion. It's not a matter of faith, like with the majority of Abrahamic religions, but rather one of blood. The jewish faith doesn't proselytizes for that reason.

    I didn't saw any such sources from you in our discussion yet.

    Maybe, maybe not. The fact that articles are written by a collectivity is some kind of failsafe against bias for my part.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  16. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    Already gave sources in my comment #80: Palestine: Fact or fiction.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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  17. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is nothing in there about the Land of Israel, clearly you have made it up. Something Zionists appear prone to doing.
    It is interesting how they claim the land they subsequently stole was somehow theirs, most humorous how thieves justify themselves.
    I notice you do not answer why you cannot be Arab and Jew!
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  18. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    Acording to the official documents of Britain such notion is false. As against 283 Jews convicted for illegal entry into Palestine, there were 2,150 non-Jews.

    Khirbet Qeiyafa is an Archeaological site which it's findings that were dated by a Carbon-14 testing shows that this site is from the tine of the kingdom of David. As well it's location is right where the kingdom of David was located.

    Does not contradict the fact that the origion of the Israelites is not in Cnaan, and because of that they cannot be Cnaanites.

    The Jews didnt come from Egypt. When the Israelites left Egypt they were not Jews.

    No. I dont believe the fairytale of the bible, I only know what there are evidences for it in archeaology and historical documents.

    The only thing that links Jews from Frence an Jews from Italy is their religion, and not culture, which they have every Jew from their home country. Therefore, Judaism is not a nation, but merley a religion.

    Alreay gave sources in my comment #80: http://www.politicalforum.com/index...fact-or-fiction.527059/page-4#post-1068772305

    Since anyone can write in Wikipedia, like children, and since I already found lots of mistakes in Wikipedia, it's relaibility for me is non-existent.
     
  19. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    "Palestine" is the name of Hadrian to the Land of Israel. As well in coins from the British Mandate you can see the name "Palestine (Eretz Ysrael)", which means that "Palestine" is the Land of Israel.
     
  20. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    I can see where this is going: you won't even take my arguments into consideration, no matter how sourced they are, and I am not the kind of man who likes to repeat himself. Are you trying to wear me down with no other mean than deaf repetition? You might actually win at that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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  21. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In the mandate and the source you gave the land is correctly called Palestine, no where does it mention any imaginary "Land of Israel". Again please show your source for the statement you made above.

    Palestine was the name, not the fictitious and non existent "Land of Israel".
     
  22. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Another example of a zionist simply making stuff up, how you doing with the Jewish Arabs question which you have ignored twice?
     
  23. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    At last an honest Zionist who admits that the Jews have no ties to Palestine other than their religion. Jews like everybody else have ties to their country of birth and not other peoples land in the middle east. Now if they would just return to their own lands the world will be a more peaceful place.
     
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  24. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    What I wrote you I already wrote you ewarlier. Which means, I repeated myself. Which means that you decideed to repeat yourself as if you repeat yourself will make you right.
    My arguments are all backed up with relaible sources.
     
  25. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    Already providedthe sources.
    "Palestine" is the Land of Israel as the coins from that time shows, as I already stated earlier.
     

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