Can we have a civil, thoughtful discussion on this?

A lack of 'various ways for various reasons' offered! You're doing well. You make Longshot's vacuousness look considered.

 

Probably by the same agencies that disallow Ponzi schemes and private lottery schemes, or locally like zoning and building codes are administered today. It will have to be worked out. But there's plenty of time.

 

Try some socialist economics! You make the other fellow look reasoned....

 

So according to Marx, after the state withers away, and we have *true socialism* (tm), the state will prevent the hiring of employees?

Seriously, dude. W the F?

 

The dictatorship of the proletariat has passed this plastic by...

 

The more I read of this thread, I get the feeling it could be used as the basis for a sequel to the film "Idiocracy".
"True" socialists relentlessly proffer an esoteric vision of a utopian form of society while refusing to accept responsibility for the dystopian results achieved by their attempts of achieving it.

 

Wrong. Wrong. (sigh)

According to Marx, the state withers under socialism as the capitalists give up and vanish due to "neglect." The state only withers because the class conflicts become inconsequential as the capitalists give up and shrink/vanish. And as the classes and the state wither, the state reduces to mainly clerical duties of record keeping and other routine tasks. This is when communist society emerges according to Marx.

None of this would seem shocking or unbelievable if we would just ignore these details. There is plenty to deal with without worrying about theory and events that may be 200 years out.

 

Perhaps, but there were many as well informed and as intelligent (if not more so) whose theories in economics and philosophy was vastly different than Marx. Besides, we know that the up to this point all attempts of Marxism has failed, so now we have post Soviet Marxist like Wolff and Resnick are redefining some of the classic Marx approaches to how to achieve socialism. This is evidence that at least part of Marx's approaches have failed, and is admitted as such.So, we have the benefit of something that Marx does not: hind sight.

I have on my book shelves Marx and Engels. I've read them and literally hundred of others- Hayek, Proudon, Rossaeu, Neitsche, Mills, Paine, Mises...the list goes on. Marx is no more intelligent or informed as they and it really doesn't take any special insight to understand their writing.

That's ridiculous. Simply because I disagree means I don't understand? Fallacious thinking, indeed.

Of course, I suppose if one subscribed to the million monkey theorem, anything is possible no matter how unlikely (to the point that in practicality it is impossible).

 

This is at the core of the issue that I've pointed to all along- Socialism/communism are self contradictions. They REQUIRE that state to operate, so the state never truly "withers away".

 

Now that, I would agree on.

I think ignoring the details is how we've accumulated most, if not all the problems we're trying to resolve today.
"The devil is in the details" And I think that explains why socialism or communism like any other philosophical belief would have to be imposed by some sovereign central authority which possessed absolute and undeniable powers to define right and wrong, which "IT" alone would be immune.

 

Complete and utter NONSENSE! You have not provided a single link to substantiate your own biased personal OPINIONS.

On the other hand I have provided links that DISPROVE your bogus allegation that unions were responsible for the failure of Pan Am when it was clearly a long term failure of senior management.

 

And once this happens, would I be free to set up my own business to provide a product to consumers? If so, would I be free to pay people to perform work for me?

 

Also, once the state has withered away, I'm guessing there wouldn't be any government schools? And I figure I'll be able to buy my Thompson submachine gun through the Amazon WSDE?

 

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the UAW already has blueprints for a Trabant Marx II just waiting to be introduced.

 

But none of then developed a thorough, in-depth analysis of capitalism as Marx did. You're probably referring entirely to pro-capitalist neoclassical economists.

Oh, this is good. LOL!!! I can't wait to hear what those "classic Marx approaches to how to achieve socialism" are. You're talking like you know something very important!! You just gotta tell me what Marx said about "achieving socialism"!!! --if you have anything. No need to quote. Paraphrasing would be fine. So come on, tie Marx to what happened in Russia. Tell us how he failed. If you have nothing, then you have no business trying to discredit Marx on anything but his theories and analysis. But I'm betting you have nothing and won't say anything. You'll quietly hope this whole line of BS goes away without further mention and you'll get away with it. Don't count on it.

LOL!!!! IT is exceedingly clear that you know nothing about Marx and Engels. You have never made one comment that reflects any knowledge of anything they wrote. So go Google Marx and cut and paste something he wrote so it will look like maybe I'm wrong. HAHAHA!

Of course it's not just the disagreement. It's the false confidence that you somehow know what the future holds and that "socialism can never be achieved." You've done nothing but bluff about "knowing what Marx proposed".

 

These "contradictions " are not a product of capitalism, they are are a product of human nature and market forces. Socialism is not immune to these two forces.

WSDEs and cooperatively run businesses must contend with the market and must compete in the market. When workers become the owners of business they will be seduced by the same incentive for greater income as the previous capitalists were for greater profits. Nothing changes. The workers will become the new capitalists.

When coal miners get control of the coal mine they will not stop mining coal when they learn coal contributes to Global Climate Change.

When a WSDE's product becomes obsolete or the company fails for any reason, there will be unemployment.

When workers figure they can make nearly as much by outsourcing production out of the country and not need to work they will do so.

Only a strong command economy administered by a iron fisted authoritarian state can have a chance at overcoming these "contradictions ", and that is only in the unlikely event the state makes all the right decisions.

 

What? wait. You're saying that wealth and income disparity are not produced via our capitalist system? You're saying that over-work alongside massive unemployment is not produced via our capitalist system? You're saying that banks taking away homes is not the result of our capitalist system? You're saying that gentrification, racial tensions, violence against women, and labor struggles are not produced via our capitalist system? You link in "market forces". You think those "market forces" are not generated by our capitalist system? LOL!!!!!!!!! Get serious.

You talk like we have no experience with WSDEs. Try reading a few case studies. You're wrong.

Obviously you are referring to the very earliest stages of the development of WSDEs as a new emerging system. Of course there will be things to learn and to correct, but right now just try to correct big money going into politics, or converting to a better system of healthcare, or making college more affordable for anyone who is qualified to learn at that level. Good luck!

Again, you talk like we have had no experience with this. Study into what Mondragon did when their Fagor assembly plant failed. There are other smaller examples but you would object that small businesses are more easily able to work it out.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So you are actually claiming that workers will send their own jobs overseas, leaving most of the company unemployed, so that those who remain to receive and market the product produced overseas can make more money???????????????????????????? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-as though you know anything about this... LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! F A I L !!!!!

 

And once socialism happens, would I be free to set up my own business to provide a product to consumers? If so, would I be free to pay people to perform work for me?

 

Once socialism happens you will be free to do as you are told.

 

Not if I had any say about it. You're talking about restoring capitalism. LOL!!!

 

Your predilections aside, would I legally be permitted to set up my own business to provide a product to consumers? If so, would I be free to pay people to perform work for me?

 

I can't imagine it. My guess and my hope would be "no".

 

And after government withers away, WHO will that be?

 

Not to mention individual freedom.

 

So far the only positive result I can imagine actually happening were your vision of government to be accomplished would be an end to illegal immigration. I'm wondering how emigration might be handled?