Operation Flailing Nation

Sounds like you've never bothered to read any of his other writings. I think I've read his work twice before this one, but maybe I'm confusing him with some other fine young man willing to call a spade a spade.

 

Wrong again! But look, if you feel good believing it, then that's your prerogative:

Asking “who really rules?” researchers Martin Gilens and Benjamin I. Page argue that over the past few decades America’s political system has slowly transformed from a democracy into an oligarchy, where wealthy elites wield most power.

Using data drawn from over 1,800 different policy initiatives from 1981 to 2002, the two conclude that rich, well-connected individuals on the political scene now steer the direction of the country, regardless of or even against the will of the majority of voters.

“The central point that emerges from our research is that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy,” they write, “while mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence.”


https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/princeton-experts-say-us-no-longer-democracy




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Every war from Vietnam on was a lie. In the First Iraq war, the daughter of one of the diplomats from Kuwait went in front of congress and told them how babies were taken out of incubators and left to die by the Iraq soldiers - it was all a lie. When the soldiers were retreating from Kuwait they were all mowed down like ants.

When Clinton entered the civil war in Serbia to support the KLA terrorists, he bombed Belgrade for 78 days on false premises of genocide when there was no genocide. Thousands were killed, and they even bombed a TV station for broadcasting the news. Clinton refers to it as a successful war, since only Serbs were killed.

Then we had Iraq II, Libya and the war in Syria and Ukraine which are ongoing.

 

It leaves the question to be answered of why policy-makers go with the interests of the wealthy rather than the majority interests, and I think the answer to this is manifold. You'll notice that many people are directly influenced by the wealthy through various channels, so that many actually think they want what the wealthy want, and so they vote accordingly. This is obviously especially true of Republicans, who are practically trained to support business over social issues. They also do it to themselves, I think, since they're determined to follow the Republican herd. This has them molding their thinking to fit with the party line.

It's no secret that the wealthy wield a great deal of power, but this does not remove the basic reality that we elect our leaders. Another fact that's bound contribute to this problem is that the wealthy are more likely to put money, time and effort into influencing public policy. The rest of us are busy working and grumbling about the government, but not so much getting involved directly in having a say in public policy beyond simply casting our votes and sounding off at bars and family gatherings, and on social media.

 

You are why troop morale struggles at times.

 

I know it sounds like a 'sitting on the fence' SH, but I've always thought that Saddam needed to have his expansionist wings clipped. If I remember correctly, he already had his sights set on Saudi Arabia? The mistake the US made was doing exactly that - stopping him in his tracks - but instead of re-instating him with a 'We'll be watching you from now on.' and then getting the hell out of Iraq asap, the US thought that they knew how to run the country better than he did, and we all know how wrong they were (as per effing usual?) about that.

 

Yeah. Orwell has passed from dystopian author to political adviser.

 

I somehow regret the time when military operations had humble names, like "avalanche" or "market garden" that became mythical after the action, instead of the contrary. Such names like "Righteous Justice" and the such just underline the delusions of grandeur of their planners, IMO.

 

The terrorist attack of 9/11 was a total disruption to the Bush administration's preparations for war against Iraq .. and thus the necessary kit to go to Afghanistan. In fact, the US and its allies have done well, because no one has ever won a war from outside and against large parts of the Afghan population. But by the end of 2001, the US will then have the golden opportunity to come out of Afghanistan with more grace and problems through typical US arrogance ... the Taliban will surrender honorably, but Washington would not let that happen!

The 2003 war on Saddam is simply a US war crime founded on a construct of lies ... the term war against terror was rediculous in its own! Worse, however, is the total incompetence thereafter, as the Major here also addresses, no one had any plan for the time after the military victory ... and even Rumsfeld later admitted that! So Iraq became Vietnam 2.0 with all the consequences to this day!

 

Why don't you post this to the right forum? Oh I see, you should first read the rules before being able to know what forum is the right one... Sorry my bad...

Your Russian made shades must have blocked your view there:

 

Even if you have me also your ignore list and therefore you will not read my words now ... it is always funny to read the mental nonsense as now again from you ... that's why I put you NOT on my ignore list. I want to keep having this fun!

 

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Yep, agree with that.

Monty's Market Garden operation was betrayed, which is why the 9th & 10th SS Panzer Divisions were deployed to Nijmegen and Arnhem on 16 September 1944, just before the Allied operation kicked off. Their unexpected presence brought the operation to a grinding halt.

The late Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands, who was attached to this operation on behalf of the Dutch forces, was an SS spy who worked for I G Farben's intelligence division, NW7.

 

Sorry, but I have to contradict you! Market Garden was NOT revealed and that the two SS divisions (among other units) were there was coincidence and German planning at the same time.

Rather, it was stupidity and ignorance in the British, why Market Garden failed and especially for the British paratroopers was a disaster!
A look at the British archives shows clearly that the British knew that there are 2 SS divisions ... thanks to the resistance, but also thanks to "Ultra". But it was assumed that these were struck by the previous fights massively and not a big problem. Bad error, they were refreshed materially and personally!

But even the fact that the 30th Corps only used a long road and that there was only this one push, combined with the utopian time schedule, has been total idiocy!

 

Did we get all the anti americans lined up on this thread? I don't see many missing.

 

Mmh ... is an interesting statement ...
What does that have in common to do with any anti-American behavior ... or has telling of any unpleasant truth about the US been transformed to be automatically anti-American?

Let's say that the publisher and trigger of this thread is a major in the US Forces and took an oath on your flag, eh?

 

Yeah, you are confused.

 

Happy to debate this subject Mandelus. I have studied it fairly extensively for a long time.

One has to dig to find the truth because the story has been subject to misinformation and disinformation (and worse) ever since the Operation failed. And it could easily have succeeded had General Horrocks not ordered Capt. Peter Carrington's Grenadier tank unit to take an 18 hour break following the 82nd Airborne's daring and costly capture of the Bridge at Nijmegen. That 18 hour break resulted in Capt. Frost's men holding Arnhem Bridge were captured - and Market Garden collapsed as a consequence.

To this day no one understands Horrocks thinking and why the 100 odd tanks failed to drive the 11 miles to Arnhem immediately and relieve Frost - because had they done so the entire operation would have been a raging success.

Instead, the war continued another 9 months, the precise projected period of time that it was estimated would be necessary to enable the Nazis under the direction of Martin Bormann to complete their capital flight plan that was outlined in the secret meeting on 10th August 1944 at the Hotel Maison Rouge in Strasbourg - more commonly known as the Red House meeting (HERE and HERE).

But the betrayal of the operation remains a murky matter. Prince Bernhard's (as I said he was an SS spy) trusted agent, Christiaan Lindeman - code name King Kong, betrayed the entire Operation Market Garden by taking the plans to German Army Intelligence. In October 1944, Lindeman was denounced as a German spy by a fellow Abwehr agent, Cornelius Verloop (Abwehr codename "Nelis"). Verloop told the allies that Lindeman had betrayed the Market Garden plans to Nazi intelligence on 15th September 1944, one day before the 9th and 10th Panzer Divisions were deployed to Nijmegen and Arnhem on 16th September 1944 (HERE).

 

Why don't you correct them then? I'll volunteer to be the first to be corrected if you like?

 

Methinks frm doesn't understand the marked difference between anti American foreign and war policy and anti-Americanism.

For my part I'm a strong advocate for the former --- but not the latter.

 

Look ... as I told, the British knew thoroughly what of German Forces was placed there due to have broken Enigma (= Ultra) and this far and early enogh before the forces moved to the planes and the 30. Corps started to attack on ground.
The story about Prince Bernhard as SS spy I know of course ... but I stay on the point that the British had enough warnings and informations to know that there were 2 SS Divisions and also other hard units in place ... but they failed to react on this changed situation ... no matter if these 2 SS units were there because Market Garden was betrayed before or not.

And about the 30. Corps, as I told: To use only 1 main attack route based on 1 street is something for what students in military colleges get an "F" as rating for ... and the British losses here were big out of this when tanks and other vehicles drive in line behind each other with no real possibilitiy to drive off to left or right, because bad ground.

 

Exactly. I had to say as much to Mac-7 recently. Looks like some of them believe 'might is right'?

 

Well gosh, I had no idea that so many troops pay attention to what I say. LOL

No, troop morale is low today because our guys have been "at war" for about 16 years, and they know better than most civilians that the country was taken to war on a lie, a series of lies. They know that Saddam didn't have any WMD, they know the Afghanis had nothing to do with anything, and they are intimately familiar with casualties we have suffered. They know they are cannon fodder, IED fodder, whatever you want to call it.

If you are really interested in the topic of troop morale, you should go out to a newsstand and buy the current issue of The Atlantic. On page 65 you can read the excellent article by Phil Klay USMC who served a few tours there. He asks "Can service members maintain a sense of purpose when nobody--not the public, or Congress, or the Commander in Chief himself--seems to take the wars we're fighting seriously?"

Or get a copy of Peter Van Buren's book "We Meant Well", sub-titled How I helped lose the battle for the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.

War is always Hell, and this one was brought under deception big time.

 

But you never post anything pro American. No one would guess that.

 

We won WW2 because we won the propaganda war as well as the battles. In Vietnam we won all the battles but lost the propaganda war. Our military cannot win a war that is ill defined and unsupported at home. War can be hell at home too when soldiers are treated badly there.

 

Certainly, the Brits refused to act on the betrayal and the transfer of those 2 SS Divisions, I agree. I find that very odd indeed.

But on the one road argument, which I quite understand, we have to acknowledge that had Horrocks NOT ordered Carrington and his tanks to stand down for 18 hours - when they were just a few miles away from Arnhem - the operation would've been a spectacular and daring success. Thus the argument you make about the single road operation really has no point.

For me the enduring question is why did Horrocks order the tanks to halt? This has never been satisfactorily explained. Various arguments were put forward over the years. Cornelius Ryan's excellent - but incomplete history - suggests that it was a German 88 on the road between Nijmegen and Arnhem that could've taken out the tanks and that this was the reason for the halt. But that's not really true. The US officer in command of the 82nd Airborne contingent that took the Bridge at Nijmegen, Major Cook as I recall, offered Carrington to destroy that 88. Carrington declined and said they had been ordered to stop and were now busy brewing up a cup of tea.

It's incredible. And it throws suspicion on Horrocks and suggests that there was, perhaps, another more covert game afoot that Montgomery and others were not made aware of - hardly surprising given Churchill's penchant for the SOE and other devious and highly secret gambits.

I hinted at what this reason probably was when I mentioned the Red House meeting - Allied and German eyes were turning to the future, for after the war came to an end. We get a whiff of this when US Army Generals later flew General Reinhard Gehlen to Fort Hunt in Virginia in secret without informing the president. This is all set out in The Secret Treaty of Fort Hunt (HERE). This also very likely connects to the top secret cargo aboard U-boat 234 that was unloaded in secret in the US and the manifest of which remains classified to this day. The best source for this story is Carter Hydrick's book, Critical Mass: The Real Story of the Atomic Bomb and the Nuclear Age.

The fact is that once Operation Overlord was successful and a firm and defensible beachhead had been secured everyone - both the German General staff and the Allies - knew that Nazi Germany was finished. It was only a matter of time. Hence Bormann ordering the Hotel Maison Rouge meeting to organise the capital flight programme through the 750 foreign based corporations that had been established for the purpose.

Getting the plunder and assets - and weapon blue prints - out of Germany to safe havens was the name of the game. That plan succeeded 100% too, as Paul manning reveals in his book Martin Bormann: Nazi in Exile (HERE).

But there is yet another aspect too that impinge on this curious story. Germany almost certainly had a functioning atomic bomb but they didn't have the missile system needed to deliver it. The allies also had complete air supremacy in Europe by that time. The Nazi Wonder Weapons were not going to save them in time. A year later perhaps they would've have. But they didn't have that extra year.

So the question to ask is what do you do with the most advanced military weapons in the world? Do you destroy them so the allies don't capture them, or do you trade them for freedom and other benefits?

Any politician can answer that question in three words: you trade them.

Approximately, 40,000 of the very worst Nazis and SS - death camp commandants, the vile White Angel of Auschwitz, Mengele and others of that ilk - escaped along the Ratlines to freedom in Latin America and elsewhere in the world. While elements of the US CIC were searching for Nazi war criminals to arrest and try them, other elements of the CIC were searching them out to get them to freedom so they could employ them in the cold war.

The SS Gruppenfuhrer in charge of all the Nazi Wonder Weapons, Hans Kammler disappeared at the end of the war never to be seen again. Rumours were that he escaped to latin America, but no one knew for sure. Well, today we do. The Americans got him and took him to the US.

Go figure.

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Many years ago one of the British paratroopers - one of Frost's men - in Arnhem that day Carrington's tanks were halted, contacted me and told me that they all could see the British tanks roll to a halt and hunker down. None of them understood it as they were all cheering them and expecting those tanks to drive on to Arnhem to relieve them. But they just didn't come. This old gentleman was still bitterly disappointed all those decades later and felt that they had been betrayed by their own forces.