OK you convinced me, now what?

Discussion in 'Environment & Conservation' started by Josephwalker, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. raytri

    raytri Well-Known Member

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    Sure, that's fair.

    And obviously, not everything about human existence is or should be about efficiency. Single-family homes on half-acre lots are not as efficient as an apartment building on the same space, but many people like having a larger house and a lawn. There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

    But I think efficiency is a legitimate consideration at a societal level, which is why I think there's a place for smart urban planning, rather than just letting a city grow willy-nilly without any sort of guidance.

    And people have a lot of blind spots about their own dependencies, or the broader consequences of some of their choices, or about the vast array of unintended, indirect subsidies that people use to make economic decisions. Which can lead people to make unintentionally inefficient choices, and make efficiency politically difficult.
     
  2. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    I have no problem with designing more efficient suburbs and done right they would be even more livable with bike trails and their own grocery store you could walk or bike to. Recently I was in Sunriver Oregon kind of by accident and it was set up that way. I was visiting a nearby volcanic monument area out of Bend and took off on a bike trail that led me into Sun River and I thought someday when I get too old to live where I do I'd consider a place like this. Not only does it have it's own paved bike trails and it's own grocery store but it accesses endless miles of great single track mountain biking and hiking along Deschutes river. Beautiful country.

    https://www.destinationhotels.com/sunriver-resort/resort/bend-oregon-resorts
     
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  3. raytri

    raytri Well-Known Member

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    Yep. My wife and I like smaller, compact city centers with relatively compact residential areas around them, so it's easy to bike or walk into "downtown". Not only is that efficient and bike/ped friendly, it allows the countryside to get closer to the actual city, because the city isn't sprawling. So you can be in the woods within 10 minutes by bike, even if you live downtown.

    We currently live in the Minneapolis-St. Paul metro area because of her job, so we got as close as we could: we live near downtown Hopkins, which was a standalone city before it got absorbed by the metro area, so it has a real downtown, with city-lot neighborhoods around it. Not perfect -- still have to drive to get to a lot of places -- but we like it better than living outside the metro area and spending an hour or two commuting every day.

    I work from home, so no commute needed. It'll be interesting to see how the growth of telecommuting affects development. Yes, sprawl is inefficient, but if you don't have to commute, that makes up for a lot of sins -- can have fewer, smaller roads, less air pollution, etc. From an efficiency perspective, running a few extra miles of wire in exchange for far less driving is a win.

    But on the other hand, if you no longer need a car for commuting, maybe a lot of people would give up the expense of a car -- or at least the second car. Meaning that would drive demand for compact, walkable cities.

    Either way, I suspect telecommuting is one of those stealth things that will have an unexpectedly large impact on our collective carbon footprint.
     
  4. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    As more people work from home it will definitely help with use of cars for daily commuting. Down side io this for me is small town America that used to be local employment with local people is being overrun with urban refugees able to telecommute and it's changing the flavor of small town America but you know what they say, you can't stop progress.
     
  5. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I don't live in a rural area, sorry. And the primary road through my district has been here for at least 100 years, and serves a huge number of communities. Ditto the train line. It's been here for generations, and is depended upon by a significant number of commuters (many of whom could drive to work, but choose not to).

    In an aside, I also own a property in a rural location, and know from many many years lived on the land, that country people are almost always more self-sufficient in terms of infrastructure, and very often also produce a reasonable percentage of their own food.
     
  6. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Gentrification. Not always a bad thing. We're seeing it happen in a regional town in which we have an investment property. A place long favoured by the most intransigent 'poor'. As in, missing teeth and not much education types. The thing is, the town is only a couple of hours from a major city, and has outstanding natural beauty - with lots of old workers cottages. In the past 5 years, a significant number of city folk have 'discovered' the town, and rent for a 3 bed house has increased from $800 per month, to $2000 per month. There's no way the lifetime-welfare types can pay that, so they're gradually moving further out. Great for investors (like moi .. yay!), and the new 'city' blood moving in has brought with it a richer and more varied culture, and at last - decent cafes!!
     
  7. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    It's a mixed bag for me and I have to say your generalization of locals as poor uneducated people with missing teeth is the attitude I don't like from the newbies. First liberals destroyed local economies of small towns in the west with their war against resource based economies and then they mock and ridicule the people they put out of work with their policies. I do like better restaurants though.
     
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  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Trust me when I say that I'm talking about people who are really that bad. Generational welfare recipients, criminals, etc. The worst of the worst of white trash. This isn't about ordinary 'country' folk. In a neighbouring town, the demographic is completely different. Old and established country families, with large land holdings. Mercedes driving farmers (real farmers, not hobbyists), that sort of thing.

    It must be said, the 'trash' town (which still has its fair share of toothless rednecks) is actually much friendlier than the 'posh' town. Much more diverse, and therefore less judgy of newcomers. They welcome everyone, and regard all interest in their town as good. There would be some - right at the very bottom of the socio-economic ladder, and therefore with few options - who no doubt hate the increase in real estate values, and the fancy schmancy hipster cafes that came with it, but these are the sorts of outliers who are bitter at the world for their own problems, either way. Of no consequence, IOW.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
  9. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like you're going full blown for the lumpenproletariat. Do we need to call you comrade now?
     
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  10. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    I am of course objectively correct.
    Why do you choose to make false statements?
    No, that is false. The tax did not "force" them to sell their homes. That is just another bald falsehood from you. It merely altered their payout options, encouraging them to liquidate under-utilized assets in order to pocket massive unearned (and almost always untaxed) capital gains.
    What is? Landowners being given so many hundreds of thousands of dollars in land value by the community in return for nothing that they can't afford to repay even 1% of it each year? Yeah, I suppose that could be happening. But you seem to imply that being given all that money in return for doing and contributing exactly nothing somehow makes those people victims. I'm not sure why you would think something so idiotic. The thieving parasites are somehow the victims, rather than the landless who are systematically robbed to provide landowners with those subsidies? Huh? Run that one by me again.
    <yawn> I have done more reading than you, and a LOT more thinking, as proved above.
     
  11. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Do such evasions really enable you to persuade yourself that you have not been demolished and humiliated?
     
  12. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    If identifying the fact that even a bad Georgist is infinitely better than you can be called a pro-Georgist comment.
     
  13. liberalminority

    liberalminority Well-Known Member

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    the welfare state of canada will be demolished and humiliated when America is made great again.
     
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  14. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Finally get you to admit your Georgist nature. Secret is to allow the flounce
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
  15. Liberty Monkey

    Liberty Monkey Well-Known Member

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  16. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    Real farmers drive pickups
     
  17. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Sure, if you like. I am a lifelong Socialist and Left voter, so it's not too far off.

    Don't forget though, I'm also a Landlord :furious: :smoking:
     
  18. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Yes, they have those also. But when they shoot into town they sometimes take the Merc - the seats are heated. Also, we are talking about the Landed Gentry, not hard scrabble farmers. Inherited holdings, usually prime country. Properties worth many millions of dollars.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2018
  19. ibshambat

    ibshambat Banned

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    Here's something that might interest both the believers and the non-believers: htnresearch.com
     
  20. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Socialist? You have the same dictionary as James M? Would account for alot!
     
  21. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but your 2018, soft-handed cafe-based Socialist Progressive would not recognise the pragmatics.
     
  22. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    You had a chance to defend your stance. You didn't take it. Want to try or is that too much for you?
     
  23. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Write your Congresspersons. Say you support the Paris Accords and we should not withdraw from them, Say this will have a great effect on your vote and political contributions in the next few elections

    In 2018, vote Democrat and support Democratic candidates.

    That's it, anything beyond that is up to you

    Your personal habits aren't going to make any difference. You might save lots of your money but since most conservatives have orgasms at the thought of profligate waste of all our resources I say knock yourselves out, that's less money you can give to Trump and getting rid of him and his policies should be our first priority
     
  24. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Your backfootery is always hilarious, Reiver!

    You do a fine line in 'confidence as convincer', and it's a delight to watch :)
     
  25. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    2nd dodge. Oh well, if you can't defend your own position...
     

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