Ranked Vote: How To Restore Meaningful Civil Discourse

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Meta777, Jul 25, 2018.

  1. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2015
    Messages:
    3,741
    Likes Received:
    1,748
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    A kind of guiding quotation for such a forum could come from a point made by the great Italian Marxist, Antonio Gramsci. Reviewing a book by the Bolshevik theorist Nicolai Bukharin, which attacked 'bourgeois' sociologists, Gramsci noted that Bukharin attacked only their weak points. He then argued that in physical warfare, this is perfectly correct. We attack our enemy's weak points, and try to avoid engaging him at his strongest points. But, Gramsci said, in intellectual conflict the exact opposite must be the case: we must attack our opponent's strongest points.

    Of course, everyone likes to make fun of people on the opposite side who do stupid things. Leftists love to highlight some hypocritical Republican Bible-basher who gets caught bonking a twelve-year-old. Rightists love to quote some crazed leftist professor who claims that mathematics is racist. Great fun. But not appropriate in a forum about ideas.
     
    Meta777 likes this.
  2. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So you think that we should just wait for such a disaster, rather than actively trying to fix things?
    If we go that route, the next disaster very well could be self-inflicted and as a direct result of the very polarization and dysfunction which we were unwilling to actively try to fix. If you ask me, complacency, apathy, and inaction should not be options here. No sensible reason at all to simply stand idly by in anticipation for some disaster when action can be taken to avoid it.

    -Meta
     
  3. Honky Kong

    Honky Kong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2017
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    266
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Xenforo has its own forum, they invented the platform you are using. Have you ever thought of going there and asking them?
     
  4. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What are you talking about??? Was this reply meant for someone else?
     
  5. Falena

    Falena Cherry Bomb Staff Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2009
    Messages:
    25,141
    Likes Received:
    6,724
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Speaking in general terms, discussing anything in a polite manner is an invitation to whomever you are speaking, to listen and try to understand your position. They may not agree in the end. But the chances of them taking the time to listen and understand your position is pretty good. Speaking to someone in a disrespectful or derogatory manner is a closed door situation. The person you are speaking to will become defensive. The chances of them taking the time to understand your position is very low.
    If you want people to listen and understand your position, don't key them in on being defensive because you insulted them. Key them in on being open minded by the respect you are showing in explaining your position in a polite manner and with facts to back up your position.
    Also, realize your position is yours. Just because they may not agree with you, that doesn't make them fair game to be insulted or denigrated.
    I don't know what letter in the alphabet all that would be in this thread. lol
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
    Meta777 and Baff like this.
  6. Honky Kong

    Honky Kong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2017
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    266
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Have you thought about going to the very people who invented this plat form? They would have stats and other owners views on what has worked and how well.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
  7. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2016
    Messages:
    9,641
    Likes Received:
    2,003
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Up to a point.
    There does come a point however when someone must be publicly and humiliating shot down in flames to avoid the promotion of misinformation, or anti-knowledge.
    In my classroom, if I need to, I will put my students in their place.
    I will denigrate, I will insult and I will ridicule. Worse if it is required.

    If you treat every opinion with equal respect, you may give credence to the incorrect and serve to promote it as of equal importance to the correct.
    Which it is not.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
    Honky Kong likes this.
  8. Honky Kong

    Honky Kong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2017
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    266
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Yeah yay for me. Internet trolls ARE FREE SPEECH. You don't find free speech in areas where you cannot be insulted, you find it where you CAN be insulted. "KILL the trolls okay. Define what is a troll.
    Thank you
    Honky
     
  9. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2016
    Messages:
    9,641
    Likes Received:
    2,003
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Define what are a troll.
     
  10. Honky Kong

    Honky Kong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2017
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    266
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Are a troll would be the person, is a troll would be the statement. Ol Don may well be the BEST TROLL out there. He lies up more social networks with a lone tweet than I ever could.
     
  11. Honky Kong

    Honky Kong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2017
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    266
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    They have no word filters in western Europe Not Finand or Sweden or Iceland. Funny they can do it but we Americans fall short.
     
  12. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2016
    Messages:
    9,641
    Likes Received:
    2,003
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And that my friend, is the art of trolling.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2018
    Honky Kong likes this.
  13. Honky Kong

    Honky Kong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2017
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    266
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Very true, very true. So what do you think about these new standards?
     
  14. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2016
    Messages:
    9,641
    Likes Received:
    2,003
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think the smartest thing would be to start a new board. Set your own standards.

    Boards with heavy moderation are notoriously empty.


    I'd be happy to use it, but small boards get incestuous. Once you get annoyed with a couple of posters... there is no one left to talk to.
     
    Honky Kong likes this.
  15. Honky Kong

    Honky Kong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2017
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    266
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    I have seen a lot of them die for just that. I may go back to posting in Europe to avoid the over modded sites.
     
  16. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2016
    Messages:
    9,641
    Likes Received:
    2,003
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I prefer America.
    Less political corrects. Greater emphasis on free speech.

    I'm not constantly being threatened by lefty mods that what I say is "illegal".
    Too many SJW mods in Europe. Too many snowflakes. It only takes one.

    In Europe, right wingers shut up socially.
    We can't be open about our politics.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2018
  17. Honky Kong

    Honky Kong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2017
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    266
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Europe does not have word filters.
     
  18. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2016
    Messages:
    9,641
    Likes Received:
    2,003
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sure it does.

    Lots of software use parental controls to filter words.
    Lots of forum scripts.

    There is one UK forum I use that comically filters Tesco.
    The UK's most popular supermarket.

    I can type N***** but not Tesco. Lol.

    We don't just word filters, we have laws. The websites can be prosecuted and so can the authors.
    How many times have you been called a racist in online discussion?

    If we discuss immigration, it will occur a lot.
    I like to discuss Brexit and I am a proponent for it and that brands me a racist.
    I can be arrested for this accusation.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
  19. raytri

    raytri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2004
    Messages:
    38,841
    Likes Received:
    2,142
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    FYI, here is the kind of post we see way too much of, and demonstrates the way in which trolls game the system (I'm not saying the post in question is a troll; just using the content of the post as an example).
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...s-first-witness.539076/page-7#post-1069456108

    No evidence of laundering has been shown, and the unpaid taxes appears due on the million$ Gates and Laporta embezzled.

    There is nothing factually correct about this statement, and the poster provides no sourcing to back it up. You can try to argue that it's just "opinion", but it's not, really: it's making factual claims. Opinion is "I think Manfort is innocent"; this post is making factual claims about the evidence involved in his trials.

    This kind of post requires about 10 seconds to write. Responding in kind just compounds the problem, and properly rebutting it takes significantly more effort. If the poster is a troll, they respond to substantive rebuttals with another 10 second "opinion" with no sourcing. So the trolls take over the forum, because they are putting in way less effort than serious posters.

    That is the challenge facing boards like this: how to screen out the chaff so that the noise doesn't drown out serious discussion. A masters forum where moderation is high and all claims might be sourced is one approach, though it essentially surrenders the rest of the site to the trolls. Having low-tolerance moderation for lightweight, sourceless posts is another approach, but requires good definitions and possible more moderator resources than this site has.

    But I think it's important to define the problem, even if in the end we fail to come up with a workable solution to it.
     
    Meta777 likes this.
  20. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2016
    Messages:
    9,641
    Likes Received:
    2,003
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The same two people looking at the same facts will draw entirely different conclusions from them.
    Facts do not define truth.

    I look at jobs statistics and GDP figures and see "Trump wins". Fact.
    Others look at the same statistics and see "Trump loses". Fact.

    It is for the most part irrelevant to post "facts". They do not win arguments.
    They only serve to reinforce existing beliefs.

    The opinion comes first. The belief is held due to allegiance/emotion and reinforced/justified by rationalisation afterwards.

    That is the way the human brain works.


    A troll is something different to a person who does not wish to waste time trying to convince the unconvincable or a person secure in his own justifications and research.
    A troll is someone who writes a comment with the sole purpose of baiting a response. A wind up merchant.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
  21. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Are you suggesting that the way to bring the two sides closer together is for everyone to be less civil?
    If so, then that doesn't make any sense.

    What does that even mean?
    You're suggesting that there are some people who can't participate in discussions without slinging insults and whatnot?
    That to speak in such a civil way, is a different language to them?? That requiring civility "shuts down the conversation" for them???
    I don't see that, but what then is your opinion on the idea that incivility shuts down the conversation for others?

    And if only one type of discourse could be had, why exactly would you choose incivility over civility?
    Which type is more effective at achieving its goal, and for that matter, what do you consider to be the goal of political discourse?

    -Meta
     
  22. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Are you implying that might-makes-right?
    That violence is the answer to division??
    Please clarify.

    -Meta
     
  23. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So you are suggesting that might-makes-right.

    That's a very messed up way of looking at things imo.
    And btw, verbal bullying should never be conflated with civil discourse.
    They are opposites.

    -Meta
     
  24. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Its not just the congress that needs to improve. It is the entire country.

    -Meta
     
  25. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In that case, I'll mark you down for the following:
    S, G, I, J, Additional Logic Screening For New Posters
    In that order. Added your Newbie screening idea as a separate write-in.

    BTW, definitely agree with that sentiment about making G/S the most prominent forum if we went that route.

    -Meta
     

Share This Page