The Religion of Atheism

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Alter2Ego, Jun 3, 2012.

  1. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    7,695
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Where was God in the destruction of the Jews in AD 70? You could argue there was no God.
    You could argue there was no God in the Babylonian exile, or the edict of Cyrus allowing the
    Jews to return. God employs natural processes - this is an article of faith.
    Israel respects all religions. That isn't contrary to the prophecies as I see it. Not much choice
    really, the country is full of religious groups.
    I love to read the stories of the new Israel and pick out the events I see as being God given:
    things which ordinarily wouldn't have happened. There are tons of them for instance in the
    1948 and 1967 wars.
     
  2. Buri

    Buri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2018
    Messages:
    7,723
    Likes Received:
    6,426
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Uh huh. So far societies with invisible friends have ruined every thing they touch, a fact backed up with a simple search. We can thank them for rapes being a pay-per-event situation, murder or an unprecedented scale, torture, wars, and more insanity than be measured. Wait, I left out slavery, witch hunts, sacrificing people/animals, and general tribalism.

    We already have evidence where science has improved life over a life governed by invisible, grumpy aliens. Until then we will watch the numbers of those with imaginary friends dwindle and be replaced by logic and reason.
     
  3. Buri

    Buri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2018
    Messages:
    7,723
    Likes Received:
    6,426
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The document you're looking for is the Code of Hammurabi. That was the foundation of western civilization, the bible is nothing more than a set of hand-picked letters/stories from our friends at the Council of Nicaea. It's better not to believe in farcical stories than to do so and make poor choices because of it.
     
  4. Buri

    Buri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2018
    Messages:
    7,723
    Likes Received:
    6,426
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Tell you what, in a throwback to those times you can rape a woman and throw here dad 50 beans and marry her, kill some people in a different neighborhood for not making sacrifices to your Guy, and feel free to say "no" to this, do some incest somewhere.
     
  5. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    56,871
    Likes Received:
    22,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Again, if atheists have anything to present they should. If not then constantly criticizing religion makes atheists look like a bunch of children.
     
  6. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    56,871
    Likes Received:
    22,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It depends on what you look at. I would say Christianity describes human nature quite well and offers a philosophy on how to live. What do atheists offer? Atheists offer nothing. Instead they sit around bellyaching about how they hate religion.
     
  7. Buri

    Buri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2018
    Messages:
    7,723
    Likes Received:
    6,426
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Excellent news. They have the exact same bits of logic and reason available to anyone of any faith or lack thereof. Treat people how you'd like to be treated.

    See, there's no BS, no silly rules, no childlike knee-bending to magic, no superstition. It's 100% better from day one, you're welcome.
     
  8. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    56,871
    Likes Received:
    22,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That is quite vague. We know what a religion like Christianity looks like. We know how it is structured. There is something one can study. We have 2000 plus years of history to look at. We have most of the modern Western world to look at as a result of Christian societies. You want folks to walk away from the modern world because of some simple bumper sticker philosophy?


    That is hilarious!!!
     
  9. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,218
    Likes Received:
    1,248
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There you go again. Proving the Bible by using the Bible. The Bible tells us that 2.5-3 million Hebrews left Egypt 400+ years after Joseph entered Egypt, and they wandered for 40 years in the desert. Finally, almost the same number entered Palestine (according to the Bible). We agreed that the population of Palestine was 0.6 - 1 million and I pointed out that Palestine could not support any more. What happened to the other millions?
    The fact is that there were no 'other millions'. There was no Exodus. All we have is a story written in Babylon.

    How did Jacob's blessing come true? Probably because the story was written by the Jewish scribes in the 7th century. Historical novels often do that.

    Cyrus did not edict just the Jews to return to Jerusalem, it was all conquered nations to their own countries.. The Bible only mentions the Hebrews because that's all it's concerned with. Cyrus says it was his god Marduk who told him to do it.

    Assyria conquered the Northern Kingdom and left the Southern Kingdom alone - only because it paid them tribute. When the Babylonians defeated the Assyrians they also left Judah alone - under the same conditions. The Babylonian exile occurred because Judah defied the Babylonians. They were already subject to the Babylonians when they foolishly signed a treaty with Egypt - Babylons enemy. Not long before Egyptians had invaded Babylonian territory, and been chased back to Egypt. This is all known history. Nothing to do with God.

    How do you know they wouldn't have happened? Many things happened during WWII which were 'miraculous' but no-one puts them down to God. Dunkirk for instance.

    Daniel is the title given to a book of folktales - traditionally the Jews had a seer called Danel or Daniel - and a record of the Maccabean period. There's no indication that the Babylonians actually forbade the Hebrews to practise their religion - except in the Bible. After all we are asked to believe that god told the Jews to settle down in Babylon and enjoy the land, get married, have children etc. (Jeremiah)
     
  10. Buri

    Buri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2018
    Messages:
    7,723
    Likes Received:
    6,426
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It's not any more vague than things written in the bible.

    1. We know what several dozens of versions xtianity looks like, we don't have a very good example of any of them. We don't have any society that is all xtian and all perfect. I would not call that something you can study and provide a conclusive report.
    2. I'd be a little hesitant to claim xtianity has 2000 years of spotless history, it's quite the opposite. I'd also take heed and remember the % of xtians in prisons and jails right now, I won't even get into the whole kid mess the catholics have gotten themselves into.
    3. The modern world exists due to secularism in it's most productive form. Modern medicine, biology, physics, chemistry are all fields with repeatable examples of using the scientific method to increase knowledge. None of those groups is sitting around going "well, we need this cure for X, and we've tried everything BUT bible". There is no need of any magical figures to see why we have these advances, only people relying on logic and reason.
     
    tecoyah likes this.
  11. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    56,871
    Likes Received:
    22,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes it is more vague. The bible can be studied. Your bumper sticker philosophy can be interpreted any way.

    There ya go. You cannot resist coming back the religion bashing to hide the fact that atheism has nothing to offer.

    Secularism is not really the same as atheism. Many scientists of the past were believers. Todays accomplishments are built on those. So again, you atheists need to get together, create a society and get back with us in a couple of thousand years. I bet you would not last a generation or two.
     
  12. Buri

    Buri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2018
    Messages:
    7,723
    Likes Received:
    6,426
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I’d say logic and reason has quite a lot to offer, and beats mysticism every day. That’s why we have the internet, a Mars car, and modern medicine. 97% of the members of the national Academy of Sciences are non theists.

    Wait, do you trust your physician, who is likely a person who believes in evolution, to diagnose you or do you just throw chicken bones in the dirt?

    If we all bailed this place would be Lord of the Flies in 36 hours.
     
  13. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    56,871
    Likes Received:
    22,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Logic and reason.....more vague concepts. Nah, most scientists are agnostic when it comes to their work. That is the nature of science. Besides I am speaking of the atheists who do nothing but bellyache about religion. If they think religion has not done a great job with society then they should go start their own. Most times that kind of thing has happened it has been a disaster.
     
  14. ESTT

    ESTT Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Messages:
    1,150
    Likes Received:
    276
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I have yet to see Prunepicker back up any of these claims with hard scientific evidence on the Fallacies of Evolution thread. Which he/she loves to demand from those who believe in the theory of evolution.

    http://politicalforum.com/index.php...volution-redux.504291/page-23#post-1067744546

    http://politicalforum.com/index.php...ism-is-abstract.425438/page-3#post-1065392370

    http://politicalforum.com/index.php...volution-redux.504291/page-21#post-1067674356

    http://politicalforum.com/index.php...g-christianity.446908/page-30#post-1066931364

    Besides, I don't think anyone denies that todays many accomplishments came from anyone religious. But those scientific achievements have nothing to do with the religion of those scientists. Why would you say they wouldn't last a generation or two? Scientific advancement itself is independent of religion or a lack of it. It just so happens that many early scientists were religious because most people in general were at the time.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  15. ESTT

    ESTT Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Messages:
    1,150
    Likes Received:
    276
    Trophy Points:
    83
    The world as it is created by the Christian God is a disaster. And there are many problems religion creates in society. If there was a perfect one, everyone would simply follow it. But it's clear all religions and ideologies have their flaws. It just depends on whether or not we want to see them as flaws. I agree though, the world needs a new society altogether.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  16. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    56,871
    Likes Received:
    22,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Do religions have flaws or do humans have flaws?
     
  17. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    56,871
    Likes Received:
    22,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Science has nothing to do with religion. They are not competitors. As far as evolution goes I do not see any conflict with Christianity.
     
  18. ESTT

    ESTT Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Messages:
    1,150
    Likes Received:
    276
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Niether do I. I'm not sure what people such as Prunepicker are on about.
     
  19. ESTT

    ESTT Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Messages:
    1,150
    Likes Received:
    276
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I would say both humans and religions are equally flawed. As I said, it's just a matter of what we really consider to be flaws.
     
  20. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    7,695
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If you read Exodus c.a.r.e.f.u.l.l.y it actually doesn't mean they wandered in the desert for 40 years.
    The "desert" was mostly from an area of Kadesh (about 38 years) plus one year near Mt Sinai. Neither
    of these places are known today. The journey to Canaan was about one to two months max.
    There is simply absence of evidence regards population size, indeed, about the journey itself. The new
    technology of DNA archaeology will eventually give us reasonably accurate estimates of the size of
    populations - this has been done already with Neanderthals.
    To be intellectually honest and scientifically accurate you cannot say "There was no Exodus."
    Read this before?

    A mathematician, a physicist, and an engineer are riding a train through Scotland.

    The engineer looks out the window, sees a black sheep, and exclaims, "Hey! They've got black sheep
    in Scotland!"

    The physicist looks out the window and corrects the engineer, "Strictly speaking, all we know is that
    there's at least one black sheep in Scotland."
    The mathematician looks out the window and corrects the physicist, " Strictly speaking, all we know is
    that is that at least one side of one sheep is black in Scotland.
     
  21. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    7,695
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Your point is valid, but you miss the subtlety of the arguments.
    You judge Christianity by the behavior of churches - that's like judging the American
    political system by Donald Trump.
    Yes, modernity exists due to secularism - but the philosophies behind science came
    out of Christianity. They didn't come out of Buddhism, Taoism,Hinduism etc..
     
  22. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    7,695
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You can't say that. You can only say "I believe this has nothing to do with God."

    Maybe it's nothing to do with God that the Jews returned out of exile. Maybe the
    guys who wrote all that OT stuff about their return in the "latter days" made it up.
    And made it up despite the ridicule from fellow Jews who would say "What is this
    about us returning to our land a second time? We haven't left it once, in case you
    didn't know!!!"

    Imagine predicting the future of America and telling your readership the Americans
    will return to America a second time!
    Or.. when the Jews have integrated into Europe, are more secular, and Palestine
    belongs to the Turks who are allied to the Germans... and you tell them they are
    going back to the ancient land of Israel... LOL.

    Fact - on the basis of probability: if the bible spoke of the Jews returning to their
    land, out of exile, out of tragedy, taking their land back with the sword, rebuilding a
    poor and neglected land, at a time when the Gentiles are finished ----- then that's
    the finger of God.

    Think about it, critically.
     
  23. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    7,695
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Daniel is THE point of attack for secularists against the bible. Why? Because
    it speaks so much of earth and time.

    If you are honest (?) then why not read a pro-Christian text or two on the
    topic of Daniel. I am wary of people interpreting vague texts, but some of
    this stuff is quite amazing. I do like the story of the Greek generals being
    informed of the Daniel book in their attack on Jerusalem; those who
    suffered under the Greeks understood that Daniel had foretold them of
    this; and of course references to the Romans, the destruction of the temple
    and if I recall - their killing of the Messiah (how could the enemy kill the
    Messiah? The Jews would ask.)

    nb this is interseting too: a counter to the Ur of Chaldeas thingo
    "Daniel locates the city of Shushan in the province of Elam (8:2), whereas
    later, due to boundary relocations, Shushan was in the province of Susiana.
    This argues for an early age of the book'


    Read this https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/869-amazing-prophecy-in-the-book-of-daniel-an
     
  24. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    7,695
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    re Daniel, book of.
    I pondered this for a long time.
    This is how it works, IMO
    Daniel's speaks of the Medes, Persians, Greeks and Romans.
    The Greek one of Alexander the "Great" is absolutely spot on.
    So... scribes DATE DANIEL TO A POINT AFTER THE GREEKS.
    Daniel's account "proves" it was written centuries later.
    But what of Rome? The destruction of the temple? The killing of
    the Messiah? Predicting Babylon will never be inhabited again?
    etc., etc., etc..
    That's ignored.
    It's as if three out four is enough - let's ignore the fourth.
    Bad science.

    And... people will look at a set of statements from the bible.
    Some will hone in on the ones which appear nonsensical, and
    others will focus on the ones which can be accepted. Glass half
    full, glass half empty - who is right?]
    All this sits on a knife edge.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  25. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,218
    Likes Received:
    1,248
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I suggest you read Genesis carefully and plot the route supposedly taken by the Israelites. The Bible tells us that 600,000 men - armed fir battle - left Egypt. The Bible tells us that 'soldiers' were between 20 - 50 years of age. Given that we can work out that with wives and large families the total leaving Egypt was 2.5 - 3 million. The Bible also tells us that they were going straight to Palestine - but because of sin no-one who left Egypt would enter Palestine. A generation would die out - 40 years is the Bible definition for a generation.
    "And the time from our leaving Kadesh-barnea until we crossed the brook Zered was thirty-eight years, until the entire generation, that is, the men of war, had perished from the camp, as The Lord had sworn to them." (Deuteronomy 2:14 RSV)

    2.5 - 3 m could not survive in the desert/wilderness of the Sinai peninsula of the Negev desert. Only small tribes managed that by moving around regularly.

    We don't know where anything is for sure. Neither did the scribes who wrote the story centuries later. And they certainly had no idea of desert life. Have you actually read the marching instructions given them, or the camping instructions. Both impossible. The scribes had no idea of desert life and come up with wonderful stories.
    I have - over many years. And, by the way, the Jews have always had a presence in Palestine down the centuries. Often a handful, sometimes a village. They have been persecuted at times, and at other times left alone. The Romans did not expel all the Jews from Palestine. They simply took over the land and expelled a vast number. To remove all the Jews - farmers etc - would have been stupid. The ground still needed to be farmed, the lake fished, to provide food, not only for the remainder left, but for the Roman occupiers also.


    You've been reading Josephus again. He was a good historian but there are inaccuracies in his writings, he was Jew but became a Roman citizen and was biased in his accounts towards Rome. That's how he gained his Citizenship.
    Rome was already around. Babylon was emptied by the Seleucid rulers falling out among theselves, but it was occupied again by the Sassanids centuries later, though not to the same degree, before falling into disuse after further centuries. Daniel foresaw the Sassanids?

    You believe in the 70x7 weeks and 70x70 weeks and.......... mumbo jumbo?
     

Share This Page