French Holocaust denier Robert Faurisson dies at 89

Witness testimony is not evidence.

A time machine would be the most ideal form of validation. Who would not want one?

It’s not that I didn’t witness it myself. It’s that there is no mountain of evidence giving a clear indication of the extremity of the Holocaust as depicted. What you want me to do is simply take the things proposed that suggest a thing along with testimony that supports it and conclude that this is evidence. But I’ve seen that kind of thing play out before and only years later donwe find out the truth. But that’s only because people are allowed to investigste the history. To question and demand objective proof. But we cannot do this with the Holocaust.

 

This has been said about other great lies in history, which is why I hold to the ideal that facts should be clear and demonstratable. Evidence for a false idea has been proposed and believed before. Witness testimony has been proposed andbelieved before. We just got through the Iraq war and that was full of bull and people don’t really know the extent of the bull either. I think you cannot drop the idea of certainty in things you have no basis for certainty in. You want to believe it, and so you push it from suggestive to definitive.

 

They were burned... There was no gas victims corpses to examine.
The body that were unearthed were the one that were shot not gassed.

 

The Iraq war has SFA to do with this. Stop distracting. There were thousands and thousands of witnesses. The Shoah Foundation alone filmed interviews with 50,000 survivors. That is just the people they managed to film decades after the holocaust. There were many more witnesses than that. Then there are all the documents retrieved from the Nazis and the physical evidence.

This is an incredibly well documented event. Nothing you can say changes that. Holocaust deniers & antisemites nit picking details doesn't change that.

 

Like Pisa said, the Jews and Romani were specially targetted. In the nazi plans they were to be killed off. Others, the slavs mostly, were to be used as slaves. Yes the nazi ended up killing many pow, but the population as a whole were supposed to be dispalced and use as slaves. This wasn't an option for the jews and romani after the Wansee conference.

Pisa mentionned others who were targetted, the Jehova Witness for example. Those were sent to concentration camp like Dachau and were misstreated, but in their case all they had to do to be freed was to sign a paper renouncing their faith. Not an option offered to the jews since the german considered them a race not just a religion. Same for the romani, nothing they could do or say about who they were could save them.

There wasn't as many romani then they were jews in german occupied countries. So the impact of their massacre is less visible hence why you seem to only hear about the jews. A bit like people only seem to talk about the 3000 or so americans who lost their life on 9/11 and don't consider that there were people of other nationalities who were in the WTC and who died that day. It doesn't in anyway diminish the tragedy that befell them.

 

Documentaries are not reference material. They certaintly aren’t unbiased.

Neither is witness testimony.

 

This is nonsense.

You have mountain of physical evidence of massacres. The russians and other eastern european nations are still finding and diging up mass graves today. You have all the SS paper trail. And yes, we have the testimony and admissions by many perpetrators of the crime and of the survivors. You don't have as many proof for the existance of Julius Ceasar or even Napoleon Bonaparte yet I bet you don't debate their existance or the veracity of the Battle of Waterloo even if you weren't there to see it yourself.

 

Witness testimony can be coroborated and when even the perpetrator is saying he did it it tip the scale in their favor

 

This is just more testimony, unfortunately. In many wars aggressors target specific peoples and kill them indiscriminately as they encounter them. This is not necessariky genocide. The US has engaged in this on numeous occassions. It does not minimalize the deaths. Nonetheless, at the end, their deaths may have been blown out of proportion and given a grand significance. When did you really learn about the Roma and their plight other then a passing mention. It is primarily all about the Jeeish slaughter and it is framed as thee central focus and the most important tragedy.

9/11 is a story, similarly, full of problems. Again, I don’t know the truth. But there are holes in these stories and some rather unbelievable incidences and coincidences concerning 9/11. And considering it was the pretext in pursuing a war we know we were lied into, I think doubting the official story on that deserves at least a small nod.

 

Mass graves of whom?

I don’t debate the existence of Caesar of Napolean, but, I don’t take pretty much any part of history as fact. I make note of it, but I cannot rely on it as truth without knowing so. That would be more faith-based reasoning than logic.

 

Some people in this thread seem to be using arguments like what Israel may have received as a result of the holocaust to belittle the holocaust. Talk of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Understanding what happened then is of more importance now than it has been for a very long time as we stand in a time when we may be moving back - not to the exact same but to the same dehumanisation of others and whatever that will lead to this time. This is talking about holocaust revisionism and its relevance today

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/opinion/europes-dangerous-holocaust-revisionism/

The main thing is not who it is done to. It is having a mentality which allows it to be done to anyone.

 

Ideally, sure. If we lived in a perfect and honest world.

 

Documents, witness testimony and physical evidence are the bedrock of any historical account. They are considered 'primary sources' and are accorded the highest importance. I studied history to PhD level, so I am speaking on matters I understand very well. If you do not understand the nature & importance of historical evidence then you need to stop talking about things you do not or cannot understand.

 

Israel is no victim, but that is not the tooic of this thrad. It’s one you brought up.

 

History has often been wrong.

You mistake facts accepted by consensus as universal truth.

We can stop here guys. My point is that the sides of these arguments are arguing certainties they cannot prove, relying on a mixture of hearsay and correlation to push their sides. I’m saying step back and examine it objectively. Do not place faith in what you consider to be truthful because you consider the source to be truthful. Only accept as fact those things and sources you know to be truthful. More importantly, realize the difference between what you KNOW and what you don’t and how much you simply believe from another source. There would be a whole lot less talking, sure, but you might get a much clearer worldview.

 

Yes, you were just complaining about Jews. Generally when people are talking about money from the Holocaust they talk about Israel who has received most of it but I get it with you it is Jews who are apparently getting too much.

 

Wrong. I was criticizing the official story of the Holocaust and mentioned how a distortion of the truth has been used politically, financially, and diplomatically, by the Jewish state. In this post I briefly mention my criticism of the 9/11 story. It doesn’t mean I’m criticizing or hate all Americans.

If you want to drag this into a thread about the modern politics surrounding Israel, you’re welcome to start your own thread.

 

Are you drinking. You first denied that you were speaking about Israel and when I pointed out that indeed you were not you were thinking Jews in general were getting too much money you then claim

From there you go on to say

Like I said you are making no sense and are arguing against yourself and even bringing in 9/11. If you are not drinking I will accept that you are bluffing about whoever it is, you just believe Jews are making too much money as you said the first time. You by the way were the person who believed you had to mention only one word of my post - about people bringing in their belief that Israel was making money out of the holocaust as an apparent reason to minimise or deny it happened which is why we are here. What do you believe 'the Jewish State' is called. Maybe that is your problem.

Otherwise you are just trying to pretend you did not say what you said.

Now it is night time here, I have no interest in wasting time with someone who keeps saying he was saying the opposite of what he was saying.

 

Good night, alexa.

 

Wasn't it Stalin who said every German office above lieutenant was to be
massacred. The allies were aghast. Certainly Stalin ordered the many of
Polish officers at Katyn. We are a bit more civilized than that, and more
nuanced in our grasp of the situation. Look at Verner von Braun by way
of example.

 

I see. So all these piles of corpses were shot? Are you sure?

Excerpt:
1. The Allied Commissions of Inquiry have so far established that no people were killed by poison gas in the following concentration camps: Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenbürg, Gross-Rosen, Mauthausen and its satellite camps, Natzweiler, Neuengamme, Niederhagen (Wewelsburg), Ravensbrück, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt.

In those cases, it has been possible to prove that confessions had been extracted by tortures and that testimonies were false.

This must be taken into account when conducting investigations and interrogations with respect to war crimes.

The result of this investigation should be brought to the cognizance of former concentration camp inmates who at the time of the hearings testified on the murder of people, especially Jews, with poison gas in those concentration camps. Should they insist on their statements, charges are to be brought against them for making false statements.

https://12bytes.org/history/rescuin...ndex/rescuing-israel-the-holocaust-the-bodies
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Still hiding behind that Brozat guy?
You are unable to show me/us how and where the 6 million Jews were murdered. What is wrong with a big fella like you not being able to answer a simple question? Always dodging!

 

Show me that mountain or just an ant hill of it!

 

The only one hiding here is you. If he is a reliable source why won't you address his views on gas chambers in camps in Poland?

So this time you just want 'the 6 million', not all gassed, just dead. I wonder what it will be next time. Probably a signed confession from Hitler & selfies of each victim before death.

To repeat myself: I have read enough of your posts on holocaust denier threads to know that there is simply no evidence you will accept that 5-6 million Jews were killed in the holocaust. You dismiss every form of proof as lies or falsifications and you treat any issue with any claim about the holocaust as proof that none of it happened. I don't waste time doing research to present to people I know will refuse to accept it.

If you think that proves anything other than that I am smart enough not to waste my time then you are sadly mistaken.