Out 'Missiled': How Would America Stop Russia or China's Massive Stockpile of Missiles?

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by Destroyer of illusions, Oct 29, 2018.

  1. DreamRyderX

    DreamRyderX Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2018
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    [​IMG]After the first nuke is launched, by any Country, the subsequent period thereafter becomes an "extinction".

    There will be no future, & at that time all the world's atheists will know who was right, & all the world's religious will just giggle with glee.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  2. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Messages:
    25,312
    Likes Received:
    6,670
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That's complete BS. The "one fly they all fly" garbage that governments like to promote because they think it deters any country from launching even a single nuclear weapon.

    Even if all the nuclear weapons on Earth were detonated the vast majority of humanity would survive and rebuild.
     
  3. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2018
    Messages:
    12,121
    Likes Received:
    8,714
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Finally, someone in here who understands how much nukes are blown out of proportion. I was laughed at here when I said that with a typical nuke of 500-700kt it would take a few hundred nukes to immediately kill everyone in Chicago metropolitan area (around 11,000 square miles).
    Considering that Russia has only 1,700, it can’t wipe out the US. In fact, if Russia rained it all on the US the majority of the population would be just fine and the russia would just end up with the US pissed off like a hornet nest with population triple of Russia’s, stronger economy and much more advanced weapons.

    Real scary times where back in 60s-70s when each country had over 40,000 warheads. That’s when you’d be crapping your pants every time there is elevation in hostilities.
     
    Mushroom and Dayton3 like this.
  4. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    9,808
    Likes Received:
    2,351
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If it went far enough to be a missile contest, we can all kiss our azzaz goodbye.

    Some people who have underground survival places where they can last a couple years while the earth healed
    can probably survive, but they will be back into the stone age in a few generations.

    Who knows, Mount Rushmore may be the new Gods.
     
  5. DentalFloss

    DentalFloss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    11,445
    Likes Received:
    3,263
    Trophy Points:
    113
    MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) has been a thing for 60+ years. Nobody is gonna fire first.
     
  6. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    9,808
    Likes Received:
    2,351
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Actually it is very real for terrorists to get ahold of nukes.
    Iran wants Saudi Arabia.
    All the muzzies want the Jews.
     
  7. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    8,386
    Likes Received:
    1,704
    Trophy Points:
    113

    Comparatuvely speaking, korea or iran have practically no missiles.... and yet we worry about them... why? Because the number if missiles is not really the issue
     
  8. DentalFloss

    DentalFloss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    11,445
    Likes Received:
    3,263
    Trophy Points:
    113
    True. But has ZERO to do with the USA planning a preemptive strike on Russia.
     
  9. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The debate on nuclear winter goes far beyond Sagan. We don't know what the impact might be.
     
  10. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Messages:
    25,312
    Likes Received:
    6,670
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    He and three or four other scientists articulated the concept, did all the early calculations on it, then promoted the hell out of it.
     
  11. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    There's a debate with a majority opinion, not a consensus.
     
  12. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    They're not the only scientists investigating the idea.
     
  13. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Messages:
    25,312
    Likes Received:
    6,670
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    So? It is still an ideologically driven research and not objectively based on evidence.
     
  14. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You know this because...?
     
  15. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Messages:
    25,312
    Likes Received:
    6,670
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I can read. I can read about how the concept originated with Sagan and his cohorts anti nuclear weapons zeal and not based on any actual evidence.
     
  16. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    44,677
    Likes Received:
    12,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Then you can read that other researchers are looking at impact of a number of nuclear weapons, of different yields, are used at the same time. A lot of the research and speculation has taken place since Sagan died more than twenty years ago.
     
  17. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    16,104
    Likes Received:
    2,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
  18. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    16,104
    Likes Received:
    2,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Who is your doctor?
     
  19. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    16,104
    Likes Received:
    2,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    After the end of World War I, the leaders were so greatly amazed at the number of deaths and destruction. (And also the appearance of deadly military equipment at that time) that they were sure that there would never be a war again. But we all know what happened next. Is not it? And we also know that the United States can use a nuclear bomb against civilians without regret.
     
  20. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    16,104
    Likes Received:
    2,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think that the propaganda of war, the heightening of fear that either North Korea or Iran would attack the United States are connected with the political situation in the United States, which is a consequence of the economic problems of the United States, the European Union, Japan and other leading economic countries. In other words, oligarchies need war. In order to zero debts and try to save their fortunes. There is no other reason. Wars have always been fundamentally economic. All wars, and religious as well.
     
  21. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    16,104
    Likes Received:
    2,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The eruption of the Krakatoa volcano in 535, led to death, famine, global climate change around the world for centuries.
    Information about the tragedy came to us thanks to historians who managed to capture on parchment what they saw or heard from witnesses to the disaster. A prominent religious figure of the sixth century, John of Ephesus, in his Church Stories, wrote these words: "The sun went dark and its darkness lasted for 18 months. Every day it shone only for 4 hours, but this light was only a faint shadow. Everyone thought that the sun will never shine again in full force. "
    The contemporary historian David Case, in his writings Catastrophe, published in 1999, claims that the disaster was global. Directly or indirectly, it led to the death of many people, had an impact on the lives of all continents and probably caused the fall of the Roman Empire. The subsequent 100-year period entered our history under the name "Dark Ages".

    And now imagine what awaits humanity after a global nuclear war. I think the biblical "and the living will envy the dead" is what really happens.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  22. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,134
    Likes Received:
    598
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I will ask this could either nation or combined together invade the United States and hope to hold her by occupation yes or no? Could the armed forced if forced to defend the continental United States for say two years conventionally yes or no? If both are a NO then the only reason to do such an attack would be to force us to retract to our nation and secure North America in a military action forcing us into an eventual favorable treaty unless they want to go nuclear there would be no reason to go there. Plus China would lose all US trade forever and all our factory interests will relocate and I bet to safe nations who are better disposed to us maybe Brazil and India would benefit.

    So the missile differences don't matter to me unless they use it and must we add such an attack would activate the NATO alliance and our Pacific defense treaties that is one area we have an advantage our allies and hopefully they will be worth the paper we wrote them down on.
     
  23. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2013
    Messages:
    19,292
    Likes Received:
    7,606
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It's the Missile Gap all over again, like deja vu repeating itself
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  24. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,494
    Likes Received:
    2,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yet you push one agenda and argue against anything that contradicts it?

    Yea, that is why I rarely venture down here into the political areas of the forum. I tend to find that 80% of those down here are insane to be honest.

    Most of the Nuclear Winter theories were debunked decades ago, even by those who proposed them in the first place. Today, the consensus is that at worst, it would be a "Nuclear Fall". Every one of their theories was blown apart by multiple discoveries.

    First, was that all of their mock-ups and calculations were given a real world test in 1991 and 100% failed. Not a single one of their predictions came true at all.

    Secondly, was the realization that the KT Event was not simply an asteroid impact, but a "perfect storm" of several things. First the Deccan Traps, which had been one of many volcanic events worldwide at the same time. And after the Chicxulub impact itself there was a tsunami that wiped clean most of the South and Central United States.

    And more recently researchers have started to seriously consider that there was not a single asteroid impact, but multiple impacts. The breakup of Shoemaker-Levy 9 into the Jupiter atmosphere shook a lot of paleontologists and geologists, and made them take closer looks at some of the data they already had.

    The Boltysh Crater in the Ukraine and the Silverpit Crater in the North Sea are all roughly the same age as the Chicxulub Crater.

    And finally, that the "extinction event" itself likely lasted for almost 10k years. It was not the "instant lights out for dino" that most people tend to believe.

    But yea, we actually do have a pretty good idea what the impact would be. And "Nuclear Fall" is how most scientists describe it now.
     
  25. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,494
    Likes Received:
    2,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    No country has seriously considered an invasion of the Continental US since the British did it in 1812. We are simply to large, have to armed of a population, and have to strong of a military to make it workable for any nation or group of nations (short of getting the active assistance from Canada and/or Mexico).

    However, if such an event was to happen, and say a nation was able to build up massive forces in Mexico then invade say Southern California, then the odds are that nukes would be used would increase greatly. But not as most would think.

    If one nation was to use nukes against another, then of course the international outrage would make a pariah of that country. But what is much less sure, is if those nukes were used defensively inside of their own country. Like say instead if nuking Mexico City, the US was to nuke a large military buildup just north of San Diego. It would be hard for the invading force to scream that the nukes were used "aggressively", since they are already in the user's country.

    That would be akin to my breaking into somebodies house, then screaming that they were being mean when they shot me for being there.

    Oh, China would loose much more than the US trade, they would loose the majority of European and Asian trade as well. Because most of the region would start to instantly scramble for patronage, and many who had once looked to the US would search out others.

    And I think there would be many interesting ones out there. The last 70 years have healed a lot of scars, and as odd as it sounds South Korea and the Philippines would likely gravitate towards Japan. And such an attack would likely cause Japan to throw off their self-imposed shackles and return to Superpower status once again.

    India would likely be another one in South Asia, even possibly letting their decades of hostility with Pakistan be put to rest in the face of a mutual adversary.

    But China could not survive for very long in a protracted war with the US. They have become to dependent upon imported resources in the last 40 years, and their worker base has become more and more industrialized and urbanized. In the past they could close all of the schools and send the students out into the fields to harvest grain and rice. Today, you now have generations of Chinese that have never seen rice grown or harvested.

    Sending a large number of Chinese to the fields to do such work today would be like doing the same thing in the US. Where as when Nixon visited China over 85% of the population was agrarian, their modernization has drastically reduced that number until today it is only 35%. That is not enough to maintain their food supply in the event of the loss of resources in a protracted war.

    One unique thing about the US, is that it and Russia are really the only 2 countries on the planet that could largely stop all imports and exports, and still maintain themselves. Neither country is majorly dependent upon imports and exports of critical resources in order to maintain itself in the event of a major war. Both could maintain themselves in the areas of food, fuel and raw materials in the event of a major war, China does not have that capability.

    In the event of a Sino-American War, I think that ultimately the largest change would be in the Pacific with a resurgent Japan. With the acquisition of either AV8B or F-35B aircraft, their 4 DDH class Helicopter Destroyers could be quickly converted into aircraft carriers.
     

Share This Page