Would you allow secession?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by modernpaladin, Dec 3, 2018.

?

Would you allow polarized America to split into two nations?

  1. I lean left, I would allow it.

    7 vote(s)
    17.5%
  2. I lean right, I would allow it.

    16 vote(s)
    40.0%
  3. I lean left, I would not allow it.

    7 vote(s)
    17.5%
  4. I lean right, I would not allow it.

    10 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. AlifQadr

    AlifQadr Well-Known Member

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    If the nation (General government) as a whole does not attend to its Constitutionally obligated responsibilities, than one or more States can secede being that the General government is at the behest of the Particular governments under the agreement and auspices of the Federal Constitution, which by the way, is a contract between the States and the collective, which is the Federal government. So in conclusion, the Particular governments have the authority if it is deemed necessary, to opt out of the arrangement.
     
  2. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    This was argued out ad infinitum in the 1830's. You don't HAVE a Union if anyone who wants can just pack up and leave anytime things don't suit them, that's the whole point of having a Union in the first place. Outsiders AND insiders, have to understand we are ONE nation, not several. That's why we are powerful, but even more importantly, that's why we ARE..

    If secession had been ever allowed the USA would not exist. North America would be a congeries of European client states to this day, racked by a history of wars that would make Europe look like Eden.

    And Jeebus, will you guys come the **** ON with this ****. Everyone knows you don't really want to secede, NOBODY really has any loyalty to their fracking STATE anymore, what's your State Song, Sport, Bird? Hell, name your State's chief legislator, or ANY state legislator.

    You want the United States to be like you want it, not the State you live in. Do you REALLY want to go through Customs and renew your Passport every Thanksgiving?

    The States are Provinces and have been since 1865. Get used to it, everyone else has.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
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  3. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    A more basic question:
    If a number of states do not want to remain part of the union, why do you want them to stay?
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  4. BillRM

    BillRM Well-Known Member

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    Have you been paying attention to what is happen under Trump and his criminal gang?

    Let see the last news I had hear is that Stone to the delight of our criminal president had just declare he is going to take the fifth amendment when question by the senate.

    We are going to need to build more prisons just to deal with Trump and his supporters.

    Oh forget it as Trump have just order one hell of a lot more pardon forms.
     
  5. BillRM

    BillRM Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but the very fact that the system could allow someone like Trump to assume power is all the indication that anyone should need to know that our republic
    is no longer working.

    God help us when someone with far more brain follow the same path to power as Trump had taken.

    Trump is the symptom not the disease itself or to put it another way Trump assuming power is a dead canary in the coal mine. IE a first warning.
     
  6. Guess Who

    Guess Who Well-Known Member

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    Run like scared rats and give up your homeland but don't forget once it gets lean there they will be taking over the place you run to next.
     
  7. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Yep. And then the US can declare war on this new nation and conquer it and capture all its territory. All very constitutional
     
  8. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    Fallacy of false assertion and false confirmation, BillRM.
     
  9. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm game. Prove it to me.
     
  10. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Below is what was intended.

     
  11. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    Does not matter now what Madison intended. 231 years of history and untold light years of technological change have created a new American nation. The laws will adapt, not the people.
     
  12. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Just who do you suppose wrote this,

    Whereas the Delegates of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, did, on the 15th day of November, in the Year of Our Lord One thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy seven, and in the Second Year of the Independence of America, agree to certain articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the States of Newhampshire, Massachusetts-bay, [...]​

    and this,

    Article XIII. Every state shall abide by the determinations of the united states in congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this confederation shall be inviolably observed by every state, and the union shall be perpetual; [...]​

    and this,

    And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the legislatures we respectively represent in congress, to approve of, and to authorize us to ratify the said articles of confederation and perpetual union. Know Ye that we the undersigned delegates, by virtue of the power and authority to us given for that purpose, do by these presents, in the name and in behalf of our respective constituents, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the said articles of confederation and perpetual union, and all and singular the matters and things therein contained: And we do further solemnly plight and engage the faith of our respective constituents, that they shall abide by the determinations of the united states in congress assembled, on all questions, which by the said confederation are submitted to them. And that the articles thereof shall be inviolably observed by the states we respectively represent, and that the union shall be perpetual.

    Hmmmm?
    You haven't heard any that I can't take apart like a clock.
    You may want to think about what makes a state one of the United States under the Constitution.
     
  13. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    Perpetual Union, little buddies
     
  14. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    that's naive...laws last only as long as people want to obey them, history has many nations that successfully defied "perpetual union"...it doesn't even require violence, civil disobedience and refusal to pay taxes is usually sufficient.
     
  15. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thanks for answering my question.

    http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/fed28.htm

    http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/fed33.htm

    http://oll.libertyfund.org/pages/1798-kentucky-resolutions-jefferson-s-draft

    http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mjmtext:mad:field(DOCID+@lit(jm090163))

    https://archive.org/stream/virginiareportof00virgrich#page/190/mode/2up


     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  16. SiNNiK

    SiNNiK Well-Known Member

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    I like guns. I like immigrants. I'd be a man without a country it seems.
     
  17. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Pilgrim, I don't know what the hell your point is, but I don't click on random links. You got something to say to me, say it yourself.
     
  18. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Dear Boardies

    Witness, the true and honest Federal occupation of
    Rocky Mountain and Pacific States.

    federal_lands.jpg
    And here I believe the Federals were limited to their District of Columbia and organizing territories into "States".

    I do not care if I or You believe I am left or right.
    I support CalExit.
    Believe Texas should do the same.

    Yes to the rights of States to peacefully leave the union.
    Minimally a Constitutional Convention as States may call for.
    Witness, the GOP should have repealed ObamaCare and left it
    to the States to "replace".
    Sadly, the GOP bought into creeping Federal Powers expansion.


    Moi :oldman:
    Anti Federalist







    No Canada-1.jpg
    Across an immense, unguarded, ethereal border, Canadians, cool and unsympathetic,
    regard our America with envious eyes and slowly and surely draw their plans against us.
     
  19. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    And the People have overwhelmingly obeyed the laws since 1865, and they are doing so today. The naivete is thinking that anything is seriously going to arise from the silly secession talk.
     
  20. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    post deleted
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  21. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You could pick either.
     
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  22. Crawdadr

    Crawdadr Well-Known Member

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    In the end if we allowed states to leave the union we would be setting up the Continent for future war and devastation. As the decades and centuries roll by governments and mentalities change and resources become scarce. Water rights alone would cause countless wars. So even though I would sympathize with the thinking of the secessionists I would have to oppose it in order to protect future generations of Americans.
     
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  23. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As I pointed out earlier, I'm no proponent of secession but I haven't heard anyone make a convincing case against the 10th Amendment.

    If you've got a better case I'd be interested to hear it.

    There's a lot to think about, including "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

    Again, I feel no need to make or defend the 10th Amendment argument, but in my opinion it's been the most convincing argument in either direction.
     
  24. AlifQadr

    AlifQadr Well-Known Member

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    All I did was go via Constitution, which is a contract between the several States and The People of the Several States to unify under the agreements of the Federal Constitution, i.e., The General government. What Abraham Lincoln did was in part unConstitutional because he had no authority to declare war against the Southern, Western and some Northern states that seceded from the Union, which is a contract. Like any contract, it is null and void when one of the signatories of the agreement, i.e., the constitution of the United States of America. On the other hand, what Lincoln did can be seen in the light of knowledge of the skillful manipulation of Britannia and his knowledge of their continued plotting and ploys to destroy the United States of America.
     
  25. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    The president and Congress can declare war on any nation for any reason. If the Confederate states secede the Congress can declare war on them
     
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