The Pentagon on 9/11 - MODERATOR WARNING ISSUED

Discussion in '9/11' started by Bob0627, Nov 1, 2016.

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  1. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

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    No they are not.

    You ignored basic questions and make assertions that require the very thing you lack. You continue to ignore my post. Are you afraid?

    They prove that a pole with ground based foundations and not hollow will break a wing off. It does not compare to hollow poles held upright by 1 inch bolts and striking a more solid area of the wing and a bigger aircraft.


    Spam reported.



    You have been given evidence collected and imaged at the crash site. It includes DNA from plane passengers. you dismiss it. That is seriously pathetic.

    I have made no adjustment. It is bog standard physics. A narrow edge it may be, but it is held on to a strong rigid wing. Nothing unexpected about it at all.

    Hot air.


    An extremely dumb supposition.

    No claim made of that nature. I suggest you take year 1 physics to fill in your knowledge vacuum.

    You missed this post deliberately. See the plane hacking through TWO wooden telegraph poles?

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/the-pentagon-on-9-11.482175/page-101#post-1070052078

    I eagerly await MORE of your evasion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  2. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    Why are you lying? It didn't cut the wing. The wing was intact after the impact. The pole only damaged the front edge, that's it. Why didn't the pole cut completely through the "weak" wing like you keep claiming? Left red oval, severed wing. Right red oval, wing still intact after slicing pole in half.
    planewing.PNG
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
    Kokomojojo likes this.
  3. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for conceding that the pole did fact cut the wing.
     
  4. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    Hey Koko, the animated gif you posted shows this as "reality":
    wingletreality.PNG

    So which is it? Fiberglass winglet cuts through a plane wing or the winglets of a plane are incredibly weak?
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  5. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    And you lied about the second pole cutting the wing. Why are you lying?
     
  6. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    It DAMAGED the wing. It didn't cut through and sever it.
     
  7. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    I did no such thing! That is your strawman interpretation. But thanks for admitting that the wing was cut after all.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    It sure does!

    First you present evidence to make people believe that plane wings/winglets are incredibly weak and couldn't have knocked down/severed the light poles, then you present evidence that fiberglass winglets are strong enough to sever aluminum plane wings.
     
  9. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    Uh, yeah, you did.

    post1.PNG

    You quoted me and put the "didn't cut the wing" portion of my quote (which was referencing the second light in towards the fuselage) in bold. And then responded by saying "Baloney, it cut the wing".

    Why are you lying about what you actually said Koko?. You can't wiggle out of this one.
     
  10. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    Why didn't the second light pole in towards the fuselage cut and sever the supposedly "weak" wing like you want everyone to believe?
     
  11. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    wingletreality.PNG

    Which is it Koko? Incredibly weak like the first picture you posted or incredibly strong like the reality picture in the animated gif you posted showing the winglet severing the plane wing?

    You are so desperate, you can't even see the contradictions you post!
     
  12. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

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    KOKOMOJOJO

    Why do you keep avoiding things that prove you wrong? They aren't going away:

    NUMBER 1 - differences in your example:

    Tell me if you agree or disagree:
    a) Much smaller plane, wings not as reinforced.
    b) Vertical upright wooden telegraph poles, supported several feet in the surface by concrete footings.
    c) NOT hollow tubes supported by bolts.
    d) NOT travelling 500+ mph. Not even half of that.

    NUMBER 2 clear evidence that you are wrong:

    This plane still sliced through two wooden telegraph poles! The wings were not even taken off by the second pole, but by the engines impacting with the surface and ripping the wings to shreds.



    Video picture 1, pole sliced through wing still intact:

    [​IMG]

    Second pole and wing still attached!

    [​IMG]

    Answer specifically why you think this plane managed to slice through two tougher objects than the Pentagon light poles!

    NUMBER 3 - simple questions you keep avoiding:

    The list gets bigger and you keep running around waving your arms around and blowing hot air!

    1. The leading edge of the tail went through the impact hole, the upper part is almost certainly sheared off as it strikes the upper edge of the impact hole.
    Regarding the scratch free window - Prove the tail is alleged to have struck it. Explain with diagrams and physics why the plane tail would hit a window.

    2. So an 8 inch hollow pole can cut a reinforced 757 wing, but the edge of a reinforced concrete wall can't slice off the top of a tail fin!? EXPLAIN THIS!

    3. I asked you to show why the pole would leave the plane NOT intact. How come you avoided that? Showing different planes and circumstances is not an answer.

    4. Your remark about the Toyota truck - You aren't the spokesperson for "everybody else". Point me to a post explaining what the hell you are waffling on about, or kindly zip it.

    5. What happened to the upper fuselage on the 747, what would happen to plastic/fabric/aluminum making up the structure of the seats?

    6. Your remark about Tonka truck wheels - Explain it to me. The wheel came from a 757 landing gear, yes or no? If not, see picture above and tell me what the problem is.

    7. The supporting bolts of the poles are the weak points and where they all gave way. Do you disagree that this is where the poles gave way? Explain why these small bolts would keep the pole rigid enough to slice the wing off.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  13. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    Koko is analyzing the posts to see how he can word a response to wiggle out of answering the questions, lies, and contradictions.
     
  14. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    So let me get this straight. If I wanted see accurate results of how an 18 wheel semi truck and highway light poles react when the truck is going at 70 mph and impacts said light poles, I'll set up the test as follows:

    1. I'll use a pickup truck traveling at 35 mph.
    2. I'll use wooden telephone poles embedded in the ground instead of actual light poles.

    That'll yield accurate results for the semi/light pole scenario!
     
  15. Adam Fitzgerald

    Adam Fitzgerald Active Member

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    I will post a short evident history of American Airlines Flight 77 Here:


    American Airlines Flight 77 (Washington Dulles International Airport, Virginia to Los Angeles International Airport)
    Model Aircraft: Boeing 757-223
    Registration Number: N644AA
    Passengers: 58 (Including 5 hijackers, 6 reported however)
    Crew: 6 (Captain Charles Burlingame, First Officer David Charlebois, and flight attendants Michele Heidenberger, Jennifer Lewis, Kenneth Lewis, and Renee May
    Departure: 8:20am
    Hijacked: 8:51am
    Crashed: 9:37am
    Total Deaths: 64
    Hijackers: 5 (Hani Hanjour (presumed pilot), Salem al-Hazmi, Nawaf al-Hazmi, Khalid al-Mihdhar, Majed Moqed, and (6th unknown hijacker)

    Summary: September 10th, 2001 at 8:15pm a group of five Arab men approach the secure area leading to parked aircraft at Washington’s Dulles Airport. They were met by two security guards, Eric Gill and Nicolas de Silva. Gill, who will later identify two of the men as 9/11 hijackers Nawaf Alhazmi and Marwan Alshehhi, notices they approach a door to the secure area in a suspicious manner and that only three of them are dressed as United Airlines ramp workers and have the correct passes. Gill, a Pakistani, prevents the two without passes from entering the secure area, and realizes that he does not recognize the other three, and that their uniforms are unusually dirty for United employees. It was noted by Gill that the one man who he later identifies as Nawaf al-Hazmi, curses at him with seething anger. All 5 men then later depart. Gill goes off duty at 10:00pm while his supervisor will comment after 9/11, “If someone wanted access to the aircraft, say to plant weapons, it would have been easy for the group Eric saw to come back after he got off duty and simply use the ID cards they had to activate the electronic lock and slip through.” On September 11th 2001, at around 7:15am Flight 77 hijackers Majed Moqed and Khalid Almihdhar check in at the American Airlines ticket counter at Washington’s Dulles International Airport and arriving at the passenger security checkpoint a few minutes later at 7:18am.

    Both men set off the metal detector and were put through secondary screening. Moqed continued to set off the alarm, so he was searched with a hand wand. In the Dulles airport video (shown below) at 1:05 of the video you can see Marie Rae Sopper carrying a red cat cabin and boarding the plane after clearing the security checkpoint. A notable figure wearing black shirt and pants was seen right behind Moqed, and was cleared thru checkpoint while retrieving black carry on bag (This is presumably the 6th hijacker). Hani Hanjour checks in at the American Airlines ticket counter at Washington’s Dulles International Airport some time between 7:25am and 7:35am. Hanjour is selected for additional scrutiny by airport security under the FAA’s CAPPS program, he clears the checkpoint. Nawaf and Salem Alhazmi, check in at approximately 7:29am by Dulles Airline employee and American Airlines ticket agent Vaughn Allex, who gives the brothers their boarding passes. At 7:35am Salem and Nawaf al-Hazmi, set off the metal detector's alarm. The screener at the checkpoint never resolved what set off the alarm. As seen in security footage later released, Nawaf Hazmi appeared to have an unidentified item in his back pocket. Hanjour, Mihdhar, and Nawaf al-Hazmi did not check any bags for the flight. Checked bags belonging to Moqed and Salem al-Hazmi were held until they boarded the aircraft. On the flight, Hani Hanjour was seated up front in 1B, while Salem and Nawaf al-Hazmi were seated in first class in seats 5E and 5F. Majed Moqed and Khalid al-Mihdhar were seated further back in 12A and 12B, in economy class. American Airlines Flight 77 then was cleared for takeoff by Dulles ATC Tower which was received for takeoff by Captain Charles Burlingame at 8:10am.

    At approximately 8:51am, Flight 77 was hijacked. Six minutes later, the plane fails to respond to a routine instruction. Presumably, it is hijacked during that time. Indianapolis flight control center is handling the plane by this time. Unlike the other two flights, there were no reports of anyone being stabbed or a bomb threat and the pilots were not immediately killed but shoved to the back of the plane with the rest of the passengers. The hijackers set the flight's autopilot on a course heading east towards Washington, D.C. At 8:54am Flight 77 from Washington begins to go off course over southern Ohio, turning to the southwest. The Indianapolis Air Traffic Control Center, as well as American Airlines dispatchers, made several failed attempts to contact the aircraft. At the time the airplane was hijacked, it was flying over an area of limited radar coverage. At 8:56am Flight 77’s transponder is turned off. Radar reconstructions performed after 9/11 reveal that FAA radar equipment tracked Flight 77 from the moment its transponder was turned off at 8:56am. An air traffic controller at the FAA’s Indianapolis Center contacts the American Airlines dispatch office in Texas, and informs it that contact has been lost with Flight 77. Soon after this call, American Airlines’ executive vice president of operations, Gerard Arpey, will give an order to stop all American flight takeoffs in the Northeast US. At 9:12am, flight attendant Renee May called her mother, Nancy May, in Las Vegas. During the call, which lasted nearly two minutes, May said her flight was being hijacked by six persons, and staff and passengers had been moved to the rear of the airplane. she also relayed that she should call American Airlines and relay the information of the plane being hijacked.
     
  16. Adam Fitzgerald

    Adam Fitzgerald Active Member

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    (Continued)


    Between 9:16am and 9:26am passenger Barbara Olson called her husband, United States Solicitor General Theodore Olson, and reported that the airplane had been hijacked and that the assailants had box cutters and knives. About five minutes later, Barbara Olson called again, told her husband that the "pilot" (possibly Hanjour on the cabin intercom) had announced the flight was hijacked, and asked, "What do I tell the pilot to do? At 9:09am Danielle O'Brien, air traffic controller at Dulles International Airport, notices the re-image of the blip but going unusually fast at the descent near public airspace ""The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe." At 9:30am Reagan Airport controllers asked a passing Air National Guard Lockheed C-130 Hercules to identify and follow the aircraft. The pilot, Lt. Col. Steven O'Brien, told them it was a Boeing 757 or 767, and its silver fuselage meant that it was probably an American Airlines jet. He had difficulty picking out the airplane in the "East Coast haze", but then saw a "huge" fireball, and initially assumed it had hit the ground. Approaching the Pentagon, he saw the impact site on the building's west side and reported to Reagan control, "Looks like that aircraft crashed into the Pentagon, sir." Three F-16 fighter jets ordered to scramble from Langley Air Force Base in Virginia take off and, radar data will show, are airborne by 9:30am. Flight 77, flying at 530 mph over the Navy Annex Building adjacent to Arlington National Cemetery, crashed into the western side of the Pentagon in Arlington County, Virginia, just south of Washington, D.C., at 9:37am. In the area surrounding the Pentagon and Arlington over 125 people witnessed the plane's descent and subsequent crash into the Pentagon they included these accounts:
    Omar Campo - I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here."
    Afework Hagos - "There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in."
    Steve Riskas - "I saw the plane hit the building. It did not hit the ground first... It did not hit the roof first... It hit dead center on the edge.."
    Steve Anderson - "It didn’t register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn’t believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as
    the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it’s wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange
    fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke."
    Kim Flyler - "I pulled into the Pentagon parking lot and was trying to sneak into a spot closer to the building because I was pregnant. The security guard saw I was pregnant, so he was being nice and he was chatting with me. At that moment I heard a plane and then a loud cracking noise. We both looked up into the sky and it hit the building at that instant. It was so loud it still echoes in my head when I think about it. Right before the plane hit the building, you could see the silhouettes of people in the back two windows. You couldn’t see if they were male or female, but you could tell there was a human being in there."
    The Arlington County Fire Department (ACFD) assumed command of the immediate rescue operation within 10 minutes of the crash. Firefighters from Fort Myer and Reagan National Airport arrived within minutes. Various pieces of aircraft debris were found within the wreckage at the Pentagon. While on fire and escaping from the Navy Command Center, Lt. Kevin Shaeffer observed a chunk of the aircraft's nose cone and the nose landing gear in the service road between rings B and C. A pair of Navy men were the first to reach him. Yeoman Cean Whitmarsh was stunned that the lieutenant was still on his feet. His hair had been burned off. His polyester khakis were melted onto his skin. His flesh was charred black and bleeding and melted. And he was on fire: Flames licked up his left side. Army soldiers from Fort Belvoir were the first teams to survey the interior of the crash site and noted the presence of human remains. Early in the morning on Friday, September 14, Fairfax County Urban Search and Rescue Team members Carlton Burkhammer and Brian Moravitz came across an "intact seat from the plane's cockpit", while paramedics and firefighters located the two black boxes near the punch out hole in the A-E drive. Investigators also found a part of Nawaf al-Hazmi's driver's license in the North Parking Lot rubble pile, which was used as evidence in the 2006 Zacarious Moussoui trial. Remains that were recovered from the Pentagon were photographed, and turned over to the Armed Forces Medical Examiner office, located at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware. The medical examiner's office was able to identify remains belonging to 184 out of 189 victims. By October 2, 2001, the search for evidence and remains was complete and the site was turned over to Pentagon officials.
    American Airlines Flight 77 ATC Recording:
    American Airlines Flight 77 Transcript: https://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/16/national/transcript-of-flight-77.html
    American Airlines Seat Passenger List: http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/docs/Flight77.png
    Zacarious Moussoui Trail Exhibits regarding Flight 77: https://web.archive.org/web/2014020...oui/exhibits/prosecution/flights/P200054.html
    Dulles Airport Security Video showing Majed Moqued and Khalid al-Mihdhar:
    6on77 documentary showing the sixth hijacker:
    Eric Gill interview meeting Nawaf al-Hazmi on 9/10/2001:
    National Transportation Safety Board Flight Path Study Flight 77: https://www.ntsb.gov/about/Documents/Flight_Path_Study_AA77.pdf
    Complete listing of Flight 77 eyewitnesses near Pentagon: https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/F77pentagon.pdf
    Arlington County Pentagon 9/11 Report: https://www.fireengineering.com/art...ngton-county-va-fire-department-response.html
    Staff Statement regarding security checkpoints: https://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_3.pdf
    Pentagon officials personal experience of the Flight 77 impact: https://web.archive.org/web/2004073...ds.com/pilotonline/special/911/pentagon3.html
    Search for Human Remains end regarding Flight 77 and Pentagon: https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...a74-9f06-527baa8a0a9d/?utm_term=.cbb10a0b864c
    Black Boxes found at Pentagon: https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92510&page=1
    Vaughn Allex, Dulles Airline employee, checks in hijackers: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...on-9-11-hijackers-reveals-15-years-guilt.html
    FBI 302's regarding American Airlines Flight 77: https://www.scribd.com/document/139...of-Interest-Flight-77-Fdr-Entire-Contents-393
     
  17. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    Based on the response below, you wouldn't understand. Oh well.

     
  18. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    I thought the whole wing was extremely weak? Why two different results on the same wing? One pole was snapped in half without severing the wing and the other severed the wing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  19. Gamolon

    Gamolon Well-Known Member

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    Quit playing games Koko. Did the second pole inward sever the wing? Yes or no?
     
  20. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah quit playing games. This would the game of pretending not to see the much weaker wing slicing through two tougher poles.

    You seem to be rather evasive here, are you afraid?
     
  21. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Hey mom look no poles!

    [​IMG]

    I can slice your posts to shreds all day long

    Obviously they forgot to reinforce that plane!


    [​IMG]

    you did huh?

    You already agreed that the wing was chopped off, and as you can see we are not talking about any part of the wing inboard of the engines.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  22. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

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    Hey Koko-mom, look he avoided the post above yet again.

    What is this? Your failure is so complete it is not even up for question. Now you want to compare a wing hitting water, to a pole?

    That claim isn't even as smart as totally dumb! I do not believe you could even think they are comparable.


    Did you take physics at junior level?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  23. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Yeh before grad level.

    [​IMG]

    The least they could have done was reinforce those wings!

    [​IMG]
    especuially since its so cheap!

    Only $2.56 a bag in bulk, but the airlines were just to cheap to properly reinforce it before mowing the light poles!
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  24. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

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    Are you afraid to answer my post? You keep deliberately ignoring it, because you KNOW you are wrong.

    You have invested so much of your time making this bullshit claim about poles, that now you cannot back down because you don't want to lose face. Well guess what, too late!

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/the-pentagon-on-9-11.482175/page-102#post-1070057489

    I notice also that none of the other truthers has responded to it or called you out on your comedic errors. This is one of the fundamental problems with all conspiracy theorists. They cannot come up with a coherent story that fits the known events, let alone prove it. So what we get is a whole series of side bullshit sub-claims that contradict each other, yet not one single person on the same side of the fence as yourself will pull you up about it!
     
  25. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

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    Did you ever learn humility?

    Ok Koko, I really need you to stop playing the evasion game and watch YOUR car hitting the light pole:


    Here it is at 1:25, knocks it over!

    [​IMG]

    Another at 2:11 absolutely obliterates the pole!

    [​IMG]

    Another in entirety knocks it over!

    [​IMG]

    The car is going 50mph or close enough. It weighs 1 ton.
    The plane is going 500mph+ and the wing weighs 50 tons with fuel.

    Did your "before grad level" physics cover this simple scenario? I showed you a far weaker wing surviving 2 much stronger poles, imbedded in concrete as standard. We now have motor vehicles knocking the poles over at 1/10th of the speed of the plane and a fraction of the destructive power of the edge of a wing.

    You lost this debate the moment you bought into this total batshit theory.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
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