The Bible

This is a civil, rational discussion about the bible, not a platform for your hostility and religious bigotry. Insulting, demeaning cracks and caricatures of other's beliefs are not appropriate.

 

Why would a God who is NOT those things, be against Sola Fide? Why would God have to be "an irrational flip flopping, xenophobic, genocidal, child sacrificing maniac with the most petty and nasty of human characteristics" in order for Sola Fide to be what he requires?

 

You know that he is a Christian himself?

 

How do you know that they are condemned?

So you don't even believe in God? I'm starting to think that you don't call yourself a Christian.

 

Of course it happened to me .. and it happened to you as well. The difference is that I am no longer influenced by the fear based mind control techniques and you are.

 

Cherry picking sentences and taking them out of context is not an argument for much. I did not write Genesis. It is not my fault that God is depicted as a silly irrational God who not only makes mistakes .. but does not learn from those mistakes.

The only thing demeaning here is your denial of the obvious followed by demonization of the messenger because you have no ability to respond or refute the message.

 

I explained this in detail. Either respond to my arguments or quit repeating the same question over and over as if I had not already answered your question.

 

I don't know that they are condemned ... DA. It is Christian Dogma that they are condemned. Last time I checked this conversation is about how to make it through the pearly gates ... what is it that you think happens to those who don't make it ?

1) I believe in God ... I just do not believe in the OT depiction of God as an flip flopping, irrational, xenophobic, genocidal child killing maniac - a God with the most petty and nasty of human characteristics.

Do you believe in this depiction of God ?

2) Is a Christian not a follower of the teachings of Christ ? I suppose if this is not a Christian in your books then I am not a Christian.

Question - since you - at least not prior to me explaining to you what the main teachings of Christ were - did not much about the teachings of Christ - were you a Christian ?

You still have not responded to Post 1543. Also, you have not answered the questions in post 1549.

 

Including babies?

If you don't believe in the OT depiction of God, then why do you believe ANY of The Bible? Isn't the entire Bible totally non-credible if it describes a false God in the vast majority of its pages?

Yes I do. His character is certainly complex and confusing but I believe that He had a reason for ruling in the way that He did.

Yes it is. Both you and I are the exact same in this respect.

Can you rephrase?

Well I responded to two question from post 1549, but this conversation started out about works vs Sola Fide and I was hoping to keep it that way. What sort of men were the thieves on the cross?

 

Post 1543 is about Sola Fide. It doesn't not include babies but why are you moving the goalposts. Dogma states that anyone who does not "have faith" is condemned. Are you telling me that you do not know Christian Dogma ?

The reason I do not believe the depiction of God in the OT is trotted out in detail . There are many many different authors that contributed to the Bible over thousands of years. Just because I do not believe in one part - does not mean I do not believe any of it.

And what do you even mean when you say "The Bible" you speak as if there are not many different versions - and as if numerous changes have not been made throughout the millennia - and as if whole books have not been removed - and as if numerous edits, omissions and additions to the text on the basis of "Artistic licence - some scribe wanting the text to reflect the dogma of the day" have not been made.

You act as if the numerous contradictions in the Bible do not exist. So then tell me. Should we kill children for the sins of their parents .. or should we not ? Answer the question for a change.

If you want to believe that your creator is some flip flopping child killing irrational xenophobic genocidal maniac - you are welcome to your belief. I just do not share it. I prefer the God of Jesus or even the God of Abraham (El - El Shaddai) over YHWH.

Rephrase - Since you did not know what the teachings of Jesus were - how can you call yourself a follower of Christ ? How can you follow the teachings of Christ if you do not know what they are. There is a difference between ingesting man made Christian dogma and being a follower of Christ.

Can't say much about the the one thief. The other thief was repentant for his actions - he also showed comprehension and observance of the Golden Rule by saying that Jesus did not deserve to be there.

You want so desperately to complicate things ... one rule .. "the rule that sums up the entire Law and the Prophets" - "the Rest is just commentary - go and learn"

 

For a man who has rallied against the 'tyranny of the majority', I'm surprised that you are all of a sudden speaking so positively about a majority! So what exactly is your point in talking about the majority? (You've conveniently avoided this question twice already. Will you avoid it for a third time?)

 

So you don't in fact think that Christian dogma says that babies are condemned for never having heard of Jesus?

Sorry, do you actually think that there is one single "Christian Dogma?"

The difference is, that the CENTRAL FIGURE of the Bible is described in terms which you disagree with, plus on top of that there are all of the contradictions that you speak of above which seem to bother you, so it just seems odd that you consider one single word in the Bible to be true.

Of course we shouldn't kill children for the sins of their parents. What part of the OT are you getting this from?

When did I say that I don't know what the teachings of Jesus are?

So he spends his life stealing from people, but then all of a sudden he is considered to be following the Golden Rule? How is saying that Jesus did not deserve to be there even a WORK?

 

This is the first time I have heard you ask this question - your modus operandi is avoiding my questions

The question of Law with respect to "tyranny of the majority" has zero to do the majority of Christians rejecting Sola Fide.

The point is simply that I did not just wake up in the morning and decide for no reason to claim that the teachings of Jesus conflict with Sola fide. I am not the only one that has figured this out

 

The opposite is true.

Nope

Logical fallacy on steroids non sequitur. It is not my fault the Bible contradicts itself. Am I supposed to put blinders and shut off my brain like you do ?

You should read the book or just use google. Your God says that if a few in a town are found to be worshiping other Gods - the whole town is to be killed. In number of other places .. Your God commands the Israelite's to slaughter everyone in a town - including women and children - because of the sins of their parents

Why do you disagee with the edicts of your God ?

You didn't. Its just a fact - at least prior to my telling you what these teachings were.

He is not "considered" to be following the Golden Rule - he was following the golden rule. As stated above - it is clear that you do not understand the teachings of Jesus (at least not the main one) - even after having it explained to you in some detail. .

Treat others how you would be treated. If you don't want to be put up on a cross for no good reason - don't condone that the same be done to others.

Do unto others as you would have done to you. The the thief on the cross got it - you unfortunately do not.

 

This just reinforces my suspicion that the forum software has a flaw whereby some replies don't generate an alert to members. Just so that you know that I wasn't making it up:

First time that I asked: (4th section down) http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/the-bible.542830/page-71#post-1070042499

Second time: (2nd section down) http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/the-bible.542830/page-73#post-1070049839

I'm usually good, but your posts have been unbelievably big lately and I didn't feel that all of the questions were relevant to Sola Fide, at least not in the way that we were discussing it.

 

As in you DO think that Christian Dogma says that babies are condemned for never having heard of Jesus? Or as in you DO NOT think that Christian Dogma says that babies are condemned for never having heard of Jesus?

So if you know that there is more than one Christian Dogma, why are you just throwing around the term, "Christian Dogma?"

Why would you need to do that? I just think that it is a bit odd that you trust something which you believe has so much sh*t wrong with it.

No Bible reference?

I don't. What makes you think that I do?

You think that the first time that I heard about the Sermon on the Mount was from you? Surely you can't be serious! Why do you think this?

Except he DID condone what was happening to HIMSELF and the other thief. "We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve." The thief isn't "DOING" anything "UNTO" anyone.

 

Do you recall the passage in Ezekiel chapter 9 where Jealous got pissed and had his henchmen slaughter everyone in Jerusalem who didn't have the magic mark on their foreheads? The children and babies didn't have the mark so they were eagerly slaughtered as well as the old folks.

Ezekiel 9:3-7 (NLT) =
*3 Then the glory of the God of Israel rose up from between the cherubim, where it had rested, and moved to the entrance of the Temple. And the Lord called to the man dressed in linen who was carrying the writer’s case. 4 He said to him, “Walk through the streets of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of all who weep and sigh because of the detestable sins being committed in their city.”

5 Then I heard the Lord say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! 6 Kill them all—old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders.

7 “Defile the Temple!” the Lordcommanded. “Fill its courtyards with corpses. Go!” So they went and began killing throughout the city.*

 

"Jealous?"

How do you know that?

 

Don't you even know your favorite deity's name?

As it says in Exodus 34:14 (KJV) = *14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:*

Did the guy *walk through the streets of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of all who weep and sigh because of the detestable sins being committed in their city?*. Were the babies weeping and sighing because of the detestable sins being committed in their city? I doubt it. And didn't Jealous command the killers to kill them without mercy? And that is what the killers did.

 

Christians don't deny the brutality initiated by God and indeed it can be very difficult for us to get our heads around.

Anyway, here is the post that you responded to:

What is the relevance of Ezekiel 9:3-7?

 

Nothing to add then? If so, that's disappointing.

 

You are making a fallacious assertion. That I do not favor 50+1 as the bar for making law = forcing a personal or religious belief on someone through physical violence - has nothing to do with the fact that the majority of Christianity rejects sola fide as this claim has zero to do with law.

That I do not think simple majority should be the bar for Law - has nothing to do with whether or not sola fide is a teaching of Jesus.

capesce ?

 

1) Christian dogma states that if one does not "believe" / "have faith" that person will not make it to heaven. I am not the first to raise this dilemma.
2) What are you talking about - what is it that you are claiming I trust ?

3) Deuteronomy 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.

Exodus 20:5-6 (also Dt 5:9) I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Then there is the numerous times when God commands the Israelite's to kill whole towns on the basis of the sins of their parents.

Deuteronomy 13

So God contradicts his own rule ... and you have contradicted yourself as well. You claim that the God you worship is the flip flopping, genocidal maniac God with the most petty and nasty of human emotions ... a God who commands that children be killed for the sins of their parents.

Then you claim that you do not reject the rules of this God (that children should be killed for the sins of their parents) in one sentence when in the next you claim that you do reject the premise that children should be killed for the sins of their parents - sins of others.

Make up your mind.

4) I did not say you had never heard of the Sermon on the mount. What is obvious is that you were unfamiliar with its contents - and many of the Teachings of Jesus .

5) Your response makes no sense. The Thief stole from someone. It is Jesus who was unjustly strung up on the cross according to the thief.

 

I wouldn't have defined your comments with the term logic. Belief would be accurate.

 

What is "indefensible" are your assumptions.

1) there is no way to prove that God created all things - what is more nonsensical is the inferred idea that even if there was some God force involved, that it is the God that you believe in.

2) Clearly this is false - one only needs to look at the state of humanity to prove this claim is false. It also false from a Biblical perspective as per the claims attributed to the God of Genesis (El). Genesis 6

Hardly a vision of purity and perfection in harmony with God.