Trump’s Best Shutdown Move Is to Fold Now

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by JakeStarkey, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    First, any secure border is a form of "barrier." A physical wall is a more visible form of barrier. I think many of our current Democrat leaders have strong memories of the Cold War era, when the Berlin Wall became a symbol of governmental oppression and cruelty. They don't want America to have a wall that could quickly become a similar kind of symbol in the propaganda of our enemies. When any nation feels compelled to wall themselves in or against the outer world, it's a symbol that something's wrong with that country. It's also a cold message to those who grew up seeing the U.S. as a haven for those living in countries where human rights or opportunity have both been denied them. That would make a wall become a symbol of American insecurity, cold-heartedness, & non-compassion. That would be equivalent to something immoral for many of us.

    I disagree with your opening sentence. Democrats have made it perfectly clear they will compromise with Trump & fund the improvement of walls where they already exist, and fund a complete upgrade of the security system all along the border. They just don't want to build a new wall where it doesn't exist now. Congress has the right to pass bills that comply with their vision every bit as much as the President has the right to request what he/she wants according to their vision. But the Constitution puts the House in charge of all financial bills. It's their turf. And Presidents throughout American history have had to deal with that fact. Trump seems determined to subvert the Constitution and demand he get everything he wants with no concern for what the House wants. It's not Pelosi who is controlling this train wreck. It's Trump.
     
  2. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    Why do extreme conservatives like to pretend that the government today should be exactly like the government of our founding fathers? Those great men knew change would be constant after they were gone. They made the Constitution a "living document" capable of changing with the times as necessary. In the 1790s, it took weeks or months to get a letter or package from Massachusetts to Georgia. Today we can do it overnight. In the 1790s, it took a couple of weeks to travel that same distance, if everything went smoothly, and much longer if difficulties were encountered. Today we can board a jet & be there in a couple of hours. With these kinds of differences affecting every conceivable aspect of our daily lives, how can conservatives feel it is OK to keep that Constitution locked in and unchangeable? That would erode its effectiveness, and the sustainability of our country very quickly. The only constant in life is change. That's a good thing. But many of us don't realize we control that change. We're in charge. We determine how that change takes place, at what rate, and how it impacts us and the world around us--collectively--as a species, and a global community. We have the power to make this world a heaven or a hell, as we choose. Knowing we can is empowering. Knowing we've not chosen to use that power consciously as we should have in the past, is sobering.

    Rather than beating up on socialism, try taking an honest look at it in action--say in Sweden, Norway, or some other successful European country. Socialism--especially democratic socialism--has some very positive properties that would serve us well in the U.S. Don't be the victim of Cold War propaganda associating all socialism with communism. That was never true.
     
  3. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    Obamacare was incomplete when it was passed, and everyone knew it. At that time, Democrats controlled Congress, and expected to fix the deficit parts of Obamacare within two years. But in the next mid-term election, Republicans took control of the House, and killed any attempts to fix the crippled bill. Obama never got another chance to fix it. You can't blame Democrats when Republicans control even half of Congress. Nothing gets done.
     
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  4. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Solid precepts do not change, The right to private property is one of those. You probably ask "why is marriage between a man and women"? Liberals will try anything. To them its change = enlightenment.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
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  5. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    I said he took away the supports that made plans affordable.
     
  6. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    If you had read my post, you'd know that I spoke about eminent domain at least having more merit when it is done the Constitutional way: with Congressional involvement. Trump wants to take the more authoritarian path instead, just like he did with his unconstitutional tariffs. As for the last sentence, about what you "think," it will only become relevant when you can actual bring it to reality instead of fringe fantasies.
     
  7. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    Any dim leader who compares a US border wall to the Soviet Berlin wall is a total moron. The purpose of the Berlin wall was to keep people from leaving. The purpose of a US border wall is to keep people from entering.

    I assume you see the difference. RIght?
     
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  8. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    The people hit with higher premiums are paying for people with preexisting conditions and lower incomes. You can't provide millions of people with subsidized care without it forcing up premiums. Obama didn't level with us when he said premium costs would come down.
     
  9. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you need to rethink your claims about Sweden. Also maybe rethink the idea that letting uneducated and unskilled people swarm into the US is going to create a utopia.
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-sweden-overcame-socialism-11547078767
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  10. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Didn't level with us" Ha! That's liberal speak for lying through his teeth.
     
  11. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    We don't live in the 18th Century.
    No, they're income redistribution through the tax system. They don't collectivize production.
    It's not about you. I don't collect Social Security or use Medicare, so I can do better, too. Much better. But it's not about me, either.

    The way the modern economic system works, it's difficult for average people to earn a living. Instead of keeping the system fair, we make other adjustments.
    What if the system is tilted in your favor, as it is in mine? It's only your property because you have an unfair advantage.
     
  12. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    If I'm a liberal, you're a fascist.

    He knew premiums would go up. He didn't level; he lied. Same thing. He also said we could keep an existing policy. He couldn't possibly keep that promise because the policies are offered by private firms. Another lie.
     
  13. Professor Peabody

    Professor Peabody Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Then they need to get busy if they want the 25% of government to re-open. We've been through this over and over and over, it why we are where we are right now. Do you know how many years this has been going on? Hint: It goes clear back to Eisenhower. It's finally time to get it done and stop being responsible for the cost of..........

    [​IMG]

    Just to provide them with a bed costs $2.5 million a day, not including meals, health care and a taxpayer provided attorney. How much are we supposed to pay? I say take it from welfare, food stamps and section 8 housing and watch how fast they change their minds when they have to pay their fair share.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  14. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In my book, ANY money confiscated from the citizens solely for the purpose of redistribution of wealth is not only un constitutional, un- American, and a start to the road to Socialism. Communism is not far off. This is why we are not a Democracy. If I and others can decide to take away property from LangleyMan and give it to someone else then that precept flies in the face of everything in the Constitution. Precisely why our Constitution was written and why we have the right to own and maintain property. We are a Republic.....a nation of law. The majority can and should not run rough shod over any minority in violation of those laws. We do not direct who has the right to own property and who doesn't.

    I see two major principles at play here that the left has increasingly used to undermine our American liberty. The right to own and maintain property, AND Equal treatment under the law. Both of those precepts are being trashed by the left. I do understand there are establishment Republicans (or RINOS I should say) that do it as well. They all feed at the trough of BIG GOVERNMENT!
     
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  15. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here's the principle, LangleyMan.......our system does not guaranty economic prosperity. We have a right to economic prosperity but along with that, we have the right to fail. Liberty comes with Responsibility. I don't know you, but I believe you were taught and probably applied the same principle I was. You know the term "nest egg"? We were taught that no matter how little you make, from the beginning, you set a little aside not only for a "rainy day" but as a tool to gain and acquire wealth. In doing this, we gain a personal feeling of accomplishment and self worth. It is the American Dream but it requires responsibility. Your "redistribution of wealth" gradually removes that "dream" by relaying the attitude to younger generations, "why take the risk?" We hear voices on the left now saying they want to raise tax rates to 70%. Why work to the end of being in that tax rate?
    Agreed, the system is tilted in favor of those that work hard and wise to accomplish what they can. If someone is content to live day to day, they have a right to fail. There are safety nets for those who are truly needy through no fault of their own. I support those.
    In New York they are now talking about a guaranteed two week vacation for all......well that is how they frame it anyway. It of course does not apply to self employed workers like myself.....but we don't count. That statement assumes we all work for the "GOVERNMENT". Well we don't, but that is their dream. Some day we'll all work for the government and you can't deny.....that is SOCIALISM!
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  16. TomFitz

    TomFitz Well-Known Member

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    No,

    The people who cross both walls are looking for freedom and a better life.

    The people who build that walls want to prevent that.

    But are symbols of oppression.

    But are expessions of the fear and moral bankruptcy of the people who built them.

    And both are failures.
     
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  17. struth

    struth Well-Known Member

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    Why would you pass an incomplete bill? Seems rather incompetent. Talk about never getting anything done
     
  18. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of incomplete bills.... How's that wall coming?
     
  19. struth

    struth Well-Known Member

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    Nowhere...the Dems continue to not fund their own law. Animals
     
  20. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    that's an argument for open borders I assume. When a country offers entitlements to it's citizens, the, what keeps the masses from going to the nation with the best entitlements?
     
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  21. TomFitz

    TomFitz Well-Known Member

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    You can assume whatever you want. "open borders" is a right wing talk radio meme, a straw man the noise machine throws up for so that their audience has an slogan that they can use as a substitute for real thought.

    Your assumption that people go places, or come here in search of entitlements is a racial stereotype, not a fact.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  22. MAGA

    MAGA Well-Known Member

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    Obamacare was a planned disaster. The clear intention was to make healthcare so unaffordable and so crappy that Americans would get on their knees and beg for Socialist Healthcare.

    You can't screw things up that badly by accident.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  23. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Race of course has nothing to do with it. Race baiting is something leftists do to distract from the facts. You are for open borders because you think it gives you a type of "moral high ground". Well it doesn't. By allowing those that are not complying with our laws or without a desire to assimilate, we destroy our American Culture. That culture includes all colors. That is why a third of Mexican Americans support the wall.
     
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  24. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    All general taxes, from income and sales taxes to tariffs, redistribute income. Only user fees applied to services paid for voluntarily meet your "American" standard. I think our Founding Fathers always supported general taxes.
    If you don't like general taxes, how can we do things like provide police, military defense, public health, not to mention services we seem to want like schools and roads?
    No less than the right who seem committed to using government to protect their unfair advantages.
    Your seeming pure Republican is a tiny, tiny fraction of the public. The Chubby Fellow in the White House may appear to be fighting with RHINOs, but he's standing at the head of the line-your-pockets-via-government-influence line.

    Me? I just want to give Joe and Jane American, regardless of color or ethnicity, a chance to earn a decent living and a chance to save for a dignified retirement.
     
  25. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    I'm big on "earn-your-way," but I know enough about how things work to conclude it's rigged against average folks. That's not right.
    The "net" should be enough for those too young, too old, or too sick. Everyone else should have to work for what they get.
    You have too little faith in most folks. They should have a chance to earn their way. There are times when there aren't enough jobs to go around and we can provide workfare for the able-bodied. Too young, too old, or too sick--we halp.
     

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