Brexit: Theresa May's deal is voted down

Are you referring to Nigel Farage, the useless man who is taking his salary of E130,000 per year including expenses (he has none) from the EU and will take his guaranteed EU pension for life in the next couple of years? He is a hypocrite and racist who has run away to do paid tours of the US while sucking up to Trump.

 

'Give a dog a bad name . . . ' I can perfectly understand why the loony Left don't like him though.

 

Give me an example of his 'racism', just one?

 

This of course was the major problem and why no vote should have been allowed until the No's had presented their agenda as the SNP did with their Whiter Paper. As you say the vote was Leave or Stay and by the tiniest of margins on a campaign based on lies and as many have said a protest vote, leave won. That was it we had to leave but how we left had to still be decided. This is where the real problem with our democracy began and why the whole UK is divided on this. How we left ought to have been an agreement of all people, or all Parties. Instead May decided the Tories would do it on their own and put the hardest Brexiters in initial jobs. Prior to the result what I heard people say was that all it would result in was us being like Norway, much the same but without a voice. That probably would be the middle way but Hard Leavers scream no it must be leave, leave everything and even complain about the fact that we would be worse off, not able to have a voice. Very true. That is why people voted stay. The problem is there is no way that anyone can see that would not make us less well off. Being much the same without a vote seems the best of the batch. No deal was not what was on the ballot paper and the consequences for all of this in particular if this results in the No Deal, the hard liners have always wanted are likely to be catastrophic for the UK. Totally end the Union as well as the financial fall out. It is so stupid as it never needed to happen. It was just a row in the Tory Party. I heard Rees Mogg talking about wanting the Tory Party to bring in much of UKIP . He seemed particularly keen on Farage. Unless Corbyn is elected, I do not see the future for England looking good at all and I do see everyone else leaving a sinking ship.

 

Was Hitler racist when committing genocide on Jewish people?

 

My personal position is that I don't trust any politician (with a few exceptions). They lie and twist for a living. I also don't trust the media (also with a few exceptions). They also lie and twist for a living.

Having stated that, the fact remains that the question asked in the Referendum was simply Leave or Remain. There was no question about how on the slip of paper. Thus the public simply voted to Remain or Leave. Not leave unless or except in the case of... etc.

In the last two plus years confusion has been massively introduced. But I agree that both sides of the argument talked a lot of fear and bollocks during the run up aimed at influencing the voters.

The bottom line is that we the public have been - and are being - treated to a spectacle by our Parliamentarians that seem to me to form part of a confusion strategy and an out-poring of personal animosity and naked ambition. They are supposed to represent their Constituents but a great many of actually represent their own interests only.

Ultimately, the UK is going to Remain, I think, because the elite have already made that choice - hence the latest twist: the Dominic Grieve amendment (HERE). More on Grieve below.

I care very little for Maybot or her deal, in fact. She's an appalling dictatorial PM - and a reflection of the "elective dictator (ship)" that Quentin Hogg once described when defining the British democratic process. I've never been a clubby type of person and hated dress codes when they were regarded a mandatory. I feel sure there is a sensible and fairly straight forward way forward and had we a political class dedicated to the best interests of the British people (and not their own) I suspect we would always have left with a sensible deal.

On Dominic Grieve (arch Remainer) and also, btw, Michael Gove (arch Leaver) who has latterly become softer and more curious in his loyalties. Grieve is a Trustee and Council member of the Ditchley Foundation. Gove is not but has Ditchley has been a donor to him as revealed in the Register of Members Interests.

So what you might ask? Well, I know of Ditchley from many, many moons ago. It is one of those little known private invitation only groups (like the Oxford Group) that sits behind the scene but is immensely influential in government and ruling circles. I would go so far as to suggest that policy is often made there. More significantly, it is where the intelligence agencies of the UK and Europe meet with politicians and influential and wealthy people; a sort of spooks-meets-VIPs-to-whisper-in-their-ears.

 

Hi Alexa. To be perfectly honest - and as someone who voted to leave - had the vote gone 48% leave and 52% to stay, I would've accepted that decision and left it at that without further comment - despite my misgivings about signing away British sovereignty and democratic governance. And I'm very much in favour of democracy as a means of governance.

This would've been no different to the way that most of us accept the result of a General Election. Our politics is first past the post and that's what happened.

But Brexit has changed these generally accepted rules of engagement. Extreme views now seem to set to prevail and I expect we'll now see emerging factional and nasty disputes as standard - in the same way this seems to have become standard politics in the USA. The question to ask is who benefits from such changes? In the US it is clearly the wealthy elite who are the oligarchy that now run America as the 2015 Princeton study showed.

I agree that May has spun her particular deal. That's why she's in trouble. I don't care for her at all.

I think it likely, as you say, that the ultra hard right will be happy indeed with a no deal leave and that the future - for some time to come anyway - will not be pleasant for most of us should they remain in power. But there is no certainty they will remain in power for long and changes they make now can be remedied and reversed later. Assuming we have a political party with the balls and ethics to do so. Otherwise we're buggered either way.

What could not happen, however, is being given another choice on leaving Europe had this vote gone the other way. The UK would be in the EU for the foreseeable future and thus would become simply a state in the United States of Europe - that is already run by unelected "appointed" class of bureaucrats who solely represent the interests of corporations and Germany. That would be an end of democracy.

I don't agree that it is just a row in the Tory Party though (although that too). The result reflected widespread discontent in the country. I suspect part of this was from old tossers like me who voted to join the Common Market in 1975, without being told then that there were plans for that to transform into a political union that one day would become a USE. There also is widespread discontent about the North-South divide of have's and have not's; and the comfortably franchised and the poor (and getting worse) disenfranchised. This change results from the neoliberal economic polices that were introduced beginning with Margaret Thatcher in 1979.

 

Btw, for those who have an interest, there are two very good articles on the background of Brexit which help to explain the complexities and the dirty dealing involved on both sides:

Firstly, Robin Ramsay's LOBSTER magazine's article by Scott Newton titled The Brexit Impasse (scroll down to near the bottom) HERE

Plus an article from former Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis HERE.

 

We seem to be on two different wave lengths. I don't know if you are an American, but I know what the American reaction would be if we began to lose power and some nation tried to 'punish' and threaten us - and that's because we were never subjected to a foreign power. There is a certain pride involved in having been an empire - and the same holds true for Britain and Russia. Why do you think the British people hesitated in joining the EU, and why they want out. It's pride!

I know our Washington 'genius' didn't have the brains to realize what kind of affect the sanctions would have on the Russian people - and especially when they knew they were in the right in regard to the coup and Crimea.. Washington actually believed that by humiliating a former empire that way they would buckle when in reality it united them.

Well the same hold's true with Brussels and Germany's attitude towards Britain. Good luck, they're all going to need it! :Oldman:

 

The Founding Fathers of the EU
The following visionary leaders inspired the creation of the European Union we live in today. Without their energy and motivation we would not be living in the climate of peace and stability that we take for granted nowadays. From resistance fighters to lawyers, the Founding Fathers were a diverse group of people who held the same ideals: a peaceful, united and prosperous Europe. Beyond the Founding Fathers described below, many others have worked tirelessly towards, and inspired, the European project. This section on the Founding Fathers is therefore a work in progress.

• Konrad Adenauer
• Joseph Bech
• Johan Beyen
• Winston Churchill
• Alcide De Gasperi
• Walter Hallstein

• Sicco Mansholt
• Jean Monnet
• Robert Schuman
• Paul-Henri Spaak
• Altiero Spinelli

And the UK wanted in as early as 1961 but the french vetoed them.

 

Hitler wasn't out to kill anyone, he just wanted a greater Germany so he could feed its ever growing population, rather than having them immigrate to foreign lands.. He thought the Jews were detrimental to Germany since they didn't have the same allegiances - kind of like the Arabs in Israel, so he wanted them out. Other countries though wouldn't take them.

Hitler's plan was to push the Slavs/Russians to the Urals and grab their rich black soil and the oil at Stalingrad - thus the greatest battle of the war. They too were exterminated.

According to Israelinewslive, all the Jewish elite had to do was pay Eichmann the equivalent of $1.75 for each Jew, and they would have been freed. He said he lost 200 of his relatives because they wouldn't pay to free them - and yet for the future leaders of Israel, they paid thousands.

As for racism, all of Europe was racist to a certain extent, including the Jews - who looked down on Russian Jews. It was racism that made the US stop immigration from Eastern Europe as well as Southern Europe. Of course I'm assuming this, but I do know that the American Jews were intolerant of the Jews from Eastern Europe. The realization that Germany wasn't distinguishing between the two is what united them eventually.

 

Did those guys imagine Soviet occupied Eastern Europe
ever becoming part of the E.U.?
Except for Poland, of course.

 

How many Nigel Farages are there?

 

And yet I remember the reaction in Britain about the EU and losing their sovereignty. No other nation had that kind of reaction. Besides they never thought of themselves as being part of Europe so how can they feel a connection? Anyway trust exists only when a culture is similar, and that has to do with language.

This is why the intelligence agencies of the UK, US, Canada, Australia and NZ are intertwined, and why they follow the same foreign policy. Besides, how can they continue their allegiance with the 5 eyes as they are called, and yet have an equal allegiance to the EU. It just doesn't work out, something has to give.

 

Whoa! You appear to be an apologist for the plans to annihilate the Jewish people.

 

Am I then also an apologist for the exterminations of the Slavic people, or the Romas, or the southern Europeans? They were also killed and in an equal number as the Jews.

Anyway I don't think Hitler had plans to exterminate anyone - or at least in the beginning he didn't, but ethnic cleansing will lead to genocide. It's still going on.

 

Varoufakis had some very painful experiences with the EU when he was finance minister of Greece, so he knows them well. The man was humiliated and insulted for suggesting ways to build up Greece's economy, and even laughed at when he said austerity doesn't work. They told him they know that. In other words they just want to punish Greece as an example to others. This is why he quit.

When Merkel visited Athens last week she apologized for not realizing austerity doesn't work. Yeah right! She should apologize to the thousands of poor that died for lack of medicine, and the tens of thousands of young people that were forced to leave for Australia. Veroufakis later remarked; 'I guess Merkel went to see the desert she made'.

Anyway the EU fears that if Britain gets a decent deal, then others might want out - so they are not negotiating and are doing whatever they can to keep Britain in. I don't think anyone other than Nigel Farage would be able to battle with them, I mean let's face it, he's been doing it now for about 16 years.

 

Hitler had developed his planned extermination against Jews many years before taking power, and singled out the Jews for his hatreds. The Jews were in a category of their own. The rest were just afterthoughts. http://web.nli.org.il/sites/NLI/Eng...Germany/Weimar-Republic/Pages/Mein-Kampf.aspx

 

Cartoon by Lorna Miller in Common Space

I would expect that to be the case as this would be going back to the norm. Remember the £350m per week we were supposed to be getting for the health service. Instead we are paying up to £500 million a week on playing with Brexit

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...illion-pounds-a-week-study-says-idUKKCN1MA0DU

Of course and first past the post is a very poor system on a Democratic level. I cannot imagine that would ever have been accepted had Cameron not been so certain that Remain would win. The Leave Campaign did not expect to win either so it took no responsibility in researching what would be the consequences. That our Parliament played with the economic future of the UK in this way seems somewhat treasonous!! England had a lot of English Nationalism sparked off by Scotland's Indyref which seems to have played a part. It also did a good job of diverting from the Governments austerity policy onto the EU. Then it seems some people are still wanting to believe they are some kind of GREAT Britain. The media have for years blamed the EU for the bad government coming from Westminster. Then of course there were a fair number hoping to keep Neo Liberalism going by the vote, thinking there still is time for them to make a few bob out of the UK and most people who voted Leave were living in the areas of the UK most hit by austerity - the areas which have not had input into them and are going to be hit hardest by Brexit. Then of course there were those still believing they can get back Imperial Britain. These are the people research says voted leave and yourself excepted, leave voters were in general those with lower education. Only an insane Government would make a choice in this way!!!!!!! Of course this was before Trump and some people claim that it would not have happened had Trump already been in but I doubt that is true. It was a vote on Britain's future, done completely on emotion with no research. Emotion, not fact, not truth is recognized as how fascism gets in. As I have said before Scotland had the White Paper. I think about 1000 pages long. This was used in a two year discussion. The UK only had propaganda and of course that included encouraging xenophobia. It really beggars belief that a country which is supposed to be one of the best governed in the world could act in this way.

I think extreme views were getting started prior to this vote though it certainly seems to have encouraged them.

Yes, the wealthy elite are not going to lose anything from it. By the way are you aware that Mogg has moved his assets over to Ireland. He is not going to let leaving the EU have any effect on his finances. It will be the bottom 50% who will be hit the hardest as usual. Of course in the UK the press has no small part to play on the move to the right. Would we even have had a Brexit vote if the Daily Mail had not been blaming the EU for everything our Government had been doing wrong for at least the previous ten years.

and is only offering the same again.

https://www.commonspace.scot/articl...ly-stinks-about-media-s-response-may-s-defeat



I noticed this as well. The LSE did research some time ago and that showed that the way the Press have treated Corbyn, the lies and what not go far beyond what can be seen as any kind of 'Press Freedom' and illustrates a deliberate bias which could have a profound effect on Democracy....and people seem to have bought into this. I even noticed people doing this in the lectures/discussions at the Convention. There is no question that a Corbyn Government is the most scary thing for the Establishment and its press.

That ultra hard right believe a No deal is worth more than keeping Scotland in the Union and peace in Ireland. I think there could well be a move to make another party of the left of the Tories and Right of Labour, which may be why Mogg is talking about bringing UKIP into the Tory Party. Scotland will want Independence. Research suggests the future looks very bleak for Scotland under any Brexit but particularly a hard Brexit,. The reckoning is that we will lose £14 billion a year which is a massive amount of our budget and would seriously lower the standard of living. May also intends on taking control to Westminster things which have already been passed to Scottish control. Not surprisingly support for the SNP and another vote on Independence is on the increase again. I cannot see the Union including either Scotland or N.Ireland if there is a No Deal.

Which is why the only hope I see is Corbyn. Our politics have only moved to the right for the past 40 years and while I accept that England does have a history of having a strong anti fascist position, it is several years ago now since research done for the Guardian discovered the majority in England would support an authoritarian party as long as they believed it would not be violent. I suspect that has gone to the right now too. I would not even rule out civil war though that is a long shot. There has though been a rise in grass root websites on the left which is a positive thing but that depends on Corbyn getting in. He will need to be careful in his belief that another election will do it. At the w/e the young made clear to Corbyn that he cannot expect their support if he does not do as was promised in conference and move on to demanding a second referendum.

A Tory left/Labour Right party would bring nothing to heal the rot. Neo Liberalism has stopped working. Hell that is where many of the votes for Brexit came from.

The UK has had assurance by the EU it is accepted it does not want part of political Union. I also strongly support Democracy. However our democracy is already extremely weak. I have been talking about that in another thread. England is divided. A fundamental change which was voted for by the over 55's is going to dramatically change the life chances of the under 55's who voted against it. Whichever way you look at it England is divided. Given that people voted for Brexit when they had no chance of knowing what they were voting for and given that after Brexit was accepted instead of working out what type of Brexit there would be which would suit all of the sections of the UK, the only interest was the extreme Brexiters, it seems to me that there is every justification for giving a further vote. Indeed there is a tape somewhere of either Boris or Mogg saying during the Referendum that the public would have a second vote once the details had been worked out. The bigger problem is that a second vote might bring the same result or perhaps a win for remain on the same tiny majority...which begs the question why are we making a move which is going to have such a dramatic effect on this country, almost certainly see us in decline for several years according to economists and with no signpost as to how this would end on such a tiny majority. It certainly looks like England is giving itself the biggest shot in the foot ever.

I am in the age range as well but not one who voted to leave. I voted to stay in and work for change from within with Diem 25. I was traveling abroad at the time of the 75 vote so missed it.

With regard the vote, I was just meaning the reason we got a vote. Mainly I think to please the right of the Tories and halt UKIP and yes, they found that the Brexit vote was strongest among those who have been hit the hardest by austerity. They failed of course to tell those people that they are also the ones who are going to be hit the hardest by leaving the EU. They are of course the ones who get grants from the EU, the ones Westminster has left to unmanaged decline so I agree with you on that part except Brexit is not going to help them, it is going to hurt them most.

The young, who are the ones who are going to be hit hardest by this did not vote at the same percentage as others. No doubt they would in a second referendum as it is their lives which are going to be changed by this vote. There are of course many more of them now available to vote while many of the old timers looking for some imagined past have left us.

 

WTF does that have to do with Farage ffs? If you're having trouble finding a link for Farage's supposed 'racism' just have the guts to say so.

 

What has it to do with Farage?

 

I read Varoufakis' book Adults in the Room about the EU bullying - and a very insightful and compelling book it was too imo.

 

Of course you will never accept it in a million years, but he was simply making the obvious point that because of the sheer weight of incoming numbers our social infrastructure is under threat of meltdown. You might find out for yourself one day when you or someone you know needs urgent surgery, and you're put on the end of a long waiting list: or worse than that, you might end up in Gosport Hospital, and if you don't know what I mean by that, watch the Panorama expose, where recuperating patients were intentionally killed to make space for other recovering patients from main hospitals. I'm afraid you and your liberal ilk are destroying my country and I curse you for it.

 

So it was just by coincidence that Farage's poster campaign was a mirror image of Hitler's genocidal plan video of the extermination of Jews? Farage's calculated poster campaign was aimed to attract racists

Your country? You don't care at all about the UK - your posts clearly demonstrate that your first love is clearly Russia

 

If you haven't already you might want to read the article I linked above in LOBSTER by Scott Newton titled The Brexit Impasse. It's well worth reading for a clearer understanding of what May is trying to achieve with her deal. It'a very, very selfish. The article also lays out the EU strategy to cause confusion and punish the UK people for daring to vote for Brexit, which if allowed to proceed without clear and public humiliation may encourage other nations to bolt for it. Neither side of the this disgraceful manipulation is for the benefit of ordinary people but rather for their own narrow benefit.

Much of what you say above I agree with.

The British system of democracy is - and for me, always has been poor - but then it was designed for the benefit of the controlling elite not citizens. Not that we are citizens really; consumers at best. But it's what we've got and trying to change the playing field now to suit a different outcome can only cause irreparable damage.

Having said all that I personally do favour, as I've said before, a sensible trade deal. I have no interest in harking back to the days of British Empire or anything remotely like that, but I have no problem with being able to trade with other nations outside of the EU on a basis of respect and without hindrance.