Why the world should adopt a basic income

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by LafayetteBis, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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  2. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Europeans prefer to depend on strangers to pay for and deliver their healthcare? I doubt that they are still that foolish.

    "There was only one thing missing from the dream birth Laura had planned for her second baby. She had set up the birthing pool in her kitchen and meticulously planned a relaxing atmosphere to help her through labour without painkillers; her husband was on hand to look after their son and encourage her.

    What was missing was any kind of medical care. Laura is one of an unknown number of women in Britain today so terrified of an invasive, 'medicalised' labour that they resort to having their babies alone and in secret, without a midwife or doctor present."
    THE GUARDIAN, Women fearful of 'war zone' treatment have babies alone, By Gaby Hinsliff, chief political correspondent, July 20, 2003.
    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/nhs/story/0,1480,1001894,00.html
     
  3. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Feck me, this was a desperate attempt at cobblers! i.e. tabloidism run amok
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  4. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    That I think "people are entitled to free money earned by others?"

    Actually, I want a world in which taxation is minimised, (via establishment of a global MMT system); but in the meantime, a progressive taxation system that can raise sufficient funds to ensure just and sufficient access to the world's resources is necessary, to eliminate poverty.

    Re MMT; here is economist Steve Keen debunking the orthodox economics that is causing so much avoidable misery around the globe:

    https://www.patreon.com/posts/24382621

    You side-stepped my point, which is that the current financial system is dysfunctional. Who "earned" money in the out-of-control, 'legal', derivatives-based casino ("financial instruments of mass destruction": Warren Buffet) behind the GFC?

    Get rid of the obscenity of poverty, and the obscenity of people not knowing what to do with their money eg how about 25 cars in the garage, most of which will just slowly rot away for lack of use....eliminate this coexisting waste and want, and I won't mention the wealthy again. Deal?

    [The wealthy can continue to make fools of themselves without my help eg, Musk with his submarine that was entirely useless in the Thailand cave rescue).

    You are arguing that people are only "worth" what they can "earn" in a neoliberal marketplace. By definition - survival of the fittest.

    And speaking of "worth", what of Coca-cola - purveyors of diabetes and obesity, and countless other profit driven private enterprises.

    I agree with all that (unlike some on the Left, who apparently don't like to acknowledge self-interest as a motivating force - none of us actually likes paying tax...), but a decent economic system eliminates homelessness.

    Well - I agree with that last bit - people want - and need money, and a job guarantee (MMT policy) will make sure it happens (ie access to sufficient money, without resorting to criminality).

    Do people have to be incentivised to be "contributing" members of society? Artists, musicians, doctors, engineers, teachers? I think you are discounting the demoralising effects of entrenched poverty on the natural aspiration of people.

    Agreed!!!

    People should be afforded some standard, by ensuring everyone has access to above poverty employment. We are dealing with a systems problem.

    There is enough wealth, and indeed many don't know what to do with it (as noted above); contrary to your assertion, poverty does not exist because of a postulated "entitlement" mentality. People naturally want to be self-sufficient, but entrenched disadvantage and an, at times, bruisingly competitive job market, are huge hurdles that people ought not be expected to deal with by themselves.


    Next you will be telling me that Trump is a paradigm of international statesmanship.

    As expected, you have no conception that we are all in this together.

    Addressed above.... (but I admit your world view is going to be difficult to change....)

    At least look at Prof. Keen's lecture (linked above), and learn something about economics.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  5. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Strangers?

    Would you think in Ohio that a doctor from Connecticut was a "stranger"?

    Yes, a lot of nurses in the UK are of Polish origin. Yes, they came for the better pay-scale.

    So what? Their English is damn fine.

    In France, there are a good many Poles who are doctors (because they speak decent French) and they have medical certificates that are usable throughout the European Union.

    So what, again? On the whole the EU National Health Care services are amongst the best worldwide. (I don't know a Yank here in France who would go stateside for either dental care or hospitalization.)
     
  6. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Neither do I. Economies are too disparate in nature for One Basic Income to apply universally.

    Nonetheless, each nation should have its own Basic Income, and in the US it should be derived by cutting back on a Wasteful DoD-budget ... !
     
  7. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why does where or even how money is made make a difference.

    Upper Income-taxation is too damn low, which is the Prime Reason that (Net) Income Disparity in the US is the highest amongst developed countries ...
     
  8. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Most parents tell their children to beware of strangers for obvious reasons. Why would anyone with a healthcare problem prefer to have strangers pay for and deliver their care?

    stranger
    [streyn-jer]
    ||
    SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR stranger ON THESAURUS.COM
    noun
    a person with whom one has had no personal acquaintance:He is a perfect stranger to me.
    a newcomer in a place or locality:a stranger in town.
    an outsider:They want no strangers in on the club meetings.
    a person who is unacquainted with or unaccustomed to something (usually followed by to): He is no stranger to poverty.
    a person who is not a member of the family, group, community, or the like, as a visitor or guest:Our town shows hospitality to strangers.
    Law . one not privy or party to an act, proceeding, etc.

    Free Dictionary

    NHS is terrible, no rational person who could afford to select his own healthcare providers would choose government healthcare.

    "A senior consultant's claim that elderly patients are being left to starve to death in NHS hospitals has been dismissed by Health Secretary Alan Miburn as "ludicrous".

    Dr Adrian Treloar, a consultant in old age psychiatry and senior lecturer in geriatrics at the Greenwich Hospital and Guys', King's and St Thomas's Hospitals in London, said there was an unofficial policy of "involuntary euthanasia".

    He said patients were being denied appropriate treatment partly because of the huge pressures on beds building up in the health service.

    Dr Adrian Treloar claims the elderly do not always get proper care
    Police are reported to be investigating 60 cases involving pensioners who died after allegedly being deprived of food and water by hospital staff

    Detectives in Derbyshire have filed a report, said to run into several thousand pages, to the Crown Prosecution Service, after a 22-month inquiry at the Kingsway Hospital in Derby.

    The investigation is understood to centre on the deaths of around 30 elderly patients.
    A pressure group formed by relatives, SOS NHS Patients in Danger, is considering taking the issue to the European Court of Human Rights."
    BBC, NHS euthanasia claims ludicrous', The NHS is accused of "involuntary euthanasia" BBC, 12/6/12. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/552326.stm
     
  9. jcarlilesiu

    jcarlilesiu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree. Education is broke. And it started its decline when the fed got involved. That should be a lesson.
     
  10. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    So ...better to ensure that everyone can afford their own healthcare provider?

    Actually, of course, any problems with public healthcare around the globe can be attributed to funding - and political - pressures.
     
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  11. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    No lesson, because your statement has no basis in fact, only in your 'survival of the fittest' ideology.

    Who is going to fund education in the poorer regions?
     
  12. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    (Always hopeful about the exchange of ideas).

    Back to front, as usual.

    People are on welfare because they don't have access to above poverty employment.

    .....not because of the 'sins of their fathers' (as you stated)!

    As to your usual rants about 'liberalism', see post #796 from Liberalis.
     
  13. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    People believe money has intrinsic value, like commodities or resources, hence Conservative views on who 'deserves' to obtain it and possess it.

    MMT shows that we can all have access to a basic necessary amount of money, regardless of taxation policy.

    In the meantime:

    Agreed....but none of us actually likes paying tax, which I suppose is why it's extraordinarily difficult to increase taxation (as you are well aware), even on the very wealthy.
     
  14. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.
     
  15. saveliberty

    saveliberty Well-Known Member

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    I suppose none of the redistribution crowd here ever stopped to see the poor remain poor regardless of the theft government does. All problem in health care are the fault of funding and politics. :lol: How utterly insane. People do not take responsibility for their own health and over eat, are sedentary and pour all sorts of bad chemicals into their bodies.
     
  16. james M

    james M Banned

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    thats what Venezuela thought too!
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
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  17. saveliberty

    saveliberty Well-Known Member

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    What we could access is a basic work requirement to receive the benefits of a productive society.
     
  18. james M

    james M Banned

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    half quit welfare when Clinton turned it into workfare. Cut most liberal programs in half and it would be about right, instead liberals have tuned communist and want huge increase. Now do you understand?
     
  19. james M

    james M Banned

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    yes, look at France, a liberals wet dream at almost double our taxaction, and the yellow vests are rioting in the streets because they still cant make ends meet..Look at USA. federal and state is now $7trillion and liberals are now turning communist even though $7 trillion is more than they ever imagined just a few years ago. LIberalism is so stupid it should be illegal in America.

    Communism just killed 120 million, and liberals cant think of anything better than that? Insanity??
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  20. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    What's the poverty rate in the UK or US compared to liberal or social democracies? Provide evidence rather than cliche.
     
  21. saveliberty

    saveliberty Well-Known Member

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    You brought it up, you supply it, otherwise its just a smoke screen from you. You'll be lucky to define poverty in a way that allows for comparison.
     
  22. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    You don't seem to understand what you type. You said that the "poor remain poor regardless of the theft government does". Surely you know how poverty rates compare across countries? Surely you know whether neoliberal countries have lower poverty rates than social democratic ones?

    [PS: I know you don't]
     
  23. saveliberty

    saveliberty Well-Known Member

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  24. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Wow, they can copy and paste. Shame they can't answer an obvious question (Hint: Read Smeeding's analysis into US poverty and how it compares Europe). You're boring me now. Buck your ideas up or I can't be bothered.
     
  25. saveliberty

    saveliberty Well-Known Member

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    Sucks when a map blows your theory away.
     

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