What, exactly, is socialism? Again this discussion seems necessary.

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by Kode, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    We're dealing with a consistency problem. The question to which I have no answer is why the pass for government interference in money and banking. I just don't get it from someone who puts himself out there as a free market advocate.
     
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  2. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    You don't need to know every detail of it to know that the rule of the "proletariat" will require a state and laws and judicial structure just like any other class society does.
     
  3. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes, proletarian state. Seven million dead Ukrainians will tell us how awesome that is.
     
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  4. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Bogus deflection! You asked if a state is necessary under socialism.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  5. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    That wan't a dictatorship of the proletariat?
     
  6. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    So, is it?
     
  7. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    No, it wasn't.
     
  8. TedintheShed

    TedintheShed Banned

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    "That wasn't REAL socialim." ™
     
  9. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Yeah that's what those who don't understand the first thing about it say.
     
  10. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    How do you know that it wasn't a dictatorship of the proletariat?
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  11. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Because it was a dictatorship of the state OVER the proletariat (working class). Answer me this: in that specific case, do you believe the workers were in control of workers, or that state bureaucrats were in control of workers?
     
  12. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    A state is always in control of everyone. That's what makes it a state and not like any other organization in a free society. So, yes. The state, like all states, was in control.

    Are you suggesting that the dictatorship of the proletariat won't be a state?
     
  13. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Then there's your answer: it wasn't socialism!

    No! Have you no imagination? The state will be entirely subject to the will of the working class by the establishment of workers' organizations of various kinds which will guide the state in serving the working class.

    Now, you can argue that it will never happen if you like, but then that only means that you believe socialism will never happen. Because if workers are not in control of the state, it isn't socialism, --BY DEFINITION.
     
  14. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    But workers are currently in control of the state. Does that mean it's a socialist state?
     
  15. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Why is it a problem for someone to issue a promissory note redeemable in money to the bearer on demand?
     
  16. james M

    james M Banned

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    because you never knew if there was any real money there. 1+1=2
     
  17. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Don't we have laws against fraud?
     
  18. james M

    james M Banned

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    yep but we needed a far bigger police regulatory government bureaucracy to make it work (auditors at each bank) , and that does not include trying to handle the fluctuating values of the money relative to gold silver or other paper currencies or other commodities.
     
  19. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    You're confused. During the time you are describing gold and silver WERE the money. The banknotes were simply a promissory note redeemable in money to the bearer on demand.

    Trust in the market, oh socialist one...
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  20. james M

    james M Banned

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    totally 100% wrong and illiterate. wildcat banks often had no money behind the paper they issued and if they did in the beginning there was no guarantee they would later on. And there was no bureaucracy to even establish a ratio between real money and paper money. Banks inflated at will.

    100 miles away nobody knew anything about your money.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  21. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    So people issued promissory notes and were unable to deliver to the bearer on demand? I can see that this business would be fraudulent and be charged with fraud.

    Not sure what this has to do with gold and silver being money or a free market in money.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  22. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    You again seem to be confusing money (i.e. gold and silver) with a promissory note redeemable in money.
     
  23. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    What state? You're dreaming.
     
  24. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    The USA
     
  25. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    You again seem to be confusing money (i.e. gold and silver) with a promissory note redeemable in money.
     

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