What, exactly, is socialism? Again this discussion seems necessary.

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by Kode, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. markrc99

    markrc99 Member

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    Corporations were never a product of the state, but rather finance. To this day, the largest shareholders are in fact financial institutions. I mentioned the existing model around globe, where weak central governments in fact tend to attract multinational firms, not deter their interest. Your premise is that w/o the state altogether, we wouldn't have corporations. Assumingly, you believe that something magically wonderful, serving the collective interests of us all would fill that void. It's dog$h!+:

    When someone uses the term 'capital' & you're befuddled & then attempt to deflect, it's likely because you have no idea of what you're talking about. The source above uses the term 'finance capital', do you suddenly understand now?
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  2. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    You: Defending capital's decision to marginalize its workforce [...]

    Capital can't make decisions, because capital isn't a rational actor.
     
  3. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Then why does the state require articles of incorporation?
     
  4. markrc99

    markrc99 Member

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    Totally disagree, however we agree that it would be great if outcome-driven tactics weren't necessary or resorted to. But the fact is we have outcome forcings in the existing model. There's an inherent conflict of interest between that of capital & labor. The state has almost always beaten down labor which has always had to fight for a living wage & the working class is losing that fight! Worker productivity has been increasing for decades while compensation, stagnant.

    Equality & equity aren't a certainty in any system! If any part of what I said isn't working, let me say this; I'm not interested in changing your mind about anything. But in a free market & free society, you should & would see collectives seriously threatening the existing structure. You don't believe in single-payer, you feel you're better represented on your own, fine. But that "choice" should be there for those of us who do & it should be concerning to you that it isn't. As I've said elsewhere, I have no problem conceding the definition of the word. Along with cooperatives there should be a greater influence of environmentally-sustainable, non-profits, consumer-oriented, a living wage, local, essentially, a complete restoration of the commons!
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  5. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Are you of the belief that socialism must be forced suddenly upon us by a violent revolution?
     
  6. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    The state regulates everything that needs regulation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  7. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    There is no need for a revolution. We already have socialism. Workers are currently in control of the state.
     
  8. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    So there can be no corporation without the state. I think that's what I said in the first place.
     
  9. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    I try not to reply to foolishness now.
     
  10. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    So what's your point?
     
  11. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Majority rule. The majority of people in the US are workers. Hence, workers rule. Hence, we have socialism.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  12. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Simply debunking @markrc99 that "Corporations were never a product of the state, but rather finance"

    Corporations are created by the state.
     
  13. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Sure, --after finance demanded it.
     
  14. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    You mean workers, right? Workers run the state in the US.
     
  15. markrc99

    markrc99 Member

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    I can concede the definition of the words state & capital as well, it changes nothing! You can argue the state recognizes & ratifies capital's control over a product, service or market, but capital's little dog is all the state has ever been or will be in the current system. You could further argue that the state purposefully caters to the interests of the top, to the detriment of mid size & small businesses. Here's an example:
    I suppose a liberal democrat would emphasize Roosevelt and the gutting of his program by a republican administration. I'll listen when one of them can show me any subsequent attempt by a democratic administration to roll the policy back. This is a 101 top-down order policy, serving very narrow interests. Don't confuse ideology with corruption.

    Here's another example, from Exxon-Mobil, with respect to healthcare coverage for their employees & one from FOX about home owners insurance:

    "Both POS II (Point of Service) options are self-insured. There is no insurance company to collect premiums or underwrite coverage. Instead, contributions from you and ExxonMobil pay all benefits."
    Rather than Exxon-Mobil paying all those premiums for their employees they set up their own trust fund. No more, pay the premium and when the coverage period ends, the unused portion goes straight to Wall Street! Then you see how poorly represented policy holders are, because the top firms all collude. They all agree to fuq us over. Where is the non-profit option for you & I?
    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  16. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    I'm not exactly sure of your point. Are you saying you'd prefer to be a member of mutual insurance company than to buy insurance from a for-profit insurer? Personally, I use State Farm, which is a mutual insurance company. I am an owner/subscriber. Maybe you might want to look into something like that?
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  17. TedintheShed

    TedintheShed Banned

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    To be more accurate, corporate personhood is a state device. ,

    The granting of corporate personhood is how the state enables corporations but make no mistake I agree: it is THE STATE that hold all the power. As easy as it is to grant the corporate personhood, it could also remove it because it is a construct of the state.

    This is the flaw shared by most Marxist and most capitalist alike (though in different ways usually) in their ideology: the belief in the state.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  18. james M

    james M Banned

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    there is no confusion but there were 7000 currencies and nobody knew what they were worth. Now we have one currency and everyone knows what its worth.
     
  19. james M

    james M Banned

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    a corporation is a natural right, not a state right. One person has a right to sell you something, and so do two or more.
     
  20. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    When you say 'currencies' I take it to mean that you are referring to a promissory note redeemable in money. Those are not currencies. Those are promissory notes.
     
  21. james M

    james M Banned

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    sure, think HItler stalin Mao Pol Pot.It cant happen without liberal violence since those who are good at acquiring property won't give it up without violence.
     
  22. james M

    james M Banned

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    as I said 7000 different paper currencies with no requirement that they be backed by anything valuable.
     
  23. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    No contract law?
     
  24. james M

    james M Banned

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    insanity of course. under capitalism you have to pay the highest wage possible or lose you best workers to those who do. Now do you understand?

    what you say is like saying customers have always been beaten and have had to fight for high quality and low price. See how silly you are? Your Marxist handlers led you far astray. Do you hate them now??
     
  25. james M

    james M Banned

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    lot of good that does when your money is gone and the bank has disappeared.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019

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