Socialism or Capitalism

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Texan, Mar 4, 2019.

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Socialism or Capitalism?

  1. Socialism

    8 vote(s)
    21.1%
  2. Capitalism

    30 vote(s)
    78.9%
  1. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You said all of U.S. friends are Socialist. I agree with you and I wanted to support you. I couldn't find a list of "Amerca's friends" so I posted a list of Socialist nations of which all of them are America's friend. Are you now going to disagree with your own statement?
     
  2. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    No, Bob, I'm not disagreeing. But I honestly didn't know where you were going with the point you were making. Maybe I need to hurry off and get my second cup of coffee to improve my cognitive abilities this morning. Again, I focus much more on economics than I do on which kind of "ism" a country says it runs itself by....

    Here's the thing I hear from my German friends -- you work your ass off, you pay horrifically high taxes to the government for everything. But, the prices for many things, including health care and medicine are quite low. There's a trade-off, but a huge number of Germans simply don't work, and won't work, even though more and more companies, and even the German government, have an increasingly hard time finding people who will work because it is so easy to simply lay around on your ass and get paid by a socialistic government to do nothing!

    But, and here is where I may have misunderstood you, Germany has lots of elections, and everybody gets to vote -- even those who "lay around on their ass" and do nothing but take, take, TAKE....
     
  3. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "The lazy" in a Socialist country is just American propaganda. And during the Soviet era, it was illegal not to work. So much for Yankee propaganda.

    Our problem today is the migrants. They MOST CERTAINLY are lazy good-for-nothings. We built our perspective nations with our own work and sweat and we gladly paid our taxes to avoid seeing our people begging on the streets or dying without medical care. We pulled together to make something of our countries and we succeeded. Now we have these buggers sliding in with their sharia non-sense and sucking out the coffers dry that we filled without so much as a "Thank you, sir". The moment the wankers showed up on our doorstep they started demanding "their money". Yes, they actually call it that ... their money! I'm not joking!

     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2019
  4. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    And like everything else he said history proves him wrong and monstrously evil
     
  5. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    I agree completely with you about the 'migrants'!

    I disagree about treatment of the 'lazy' in socialistic countries, though. Even in countries like Germany (and it's FAR worse in others, like the rest of Europe), the government actually enables and encourages people to sit idly and do NOTHING -- while giving them everything they need in handout welfare and subsidies.

    Frankly, in a nation that is amply populated already with nearly 330,000,000 people, we don't NEED any more 'migrants' at all! We should declare a complete moratorium and freeze on all immigration for a cooling-off period of at least five years!
     
  6. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How could anyone with any sense not?
    This is a terrible observation and untrue. Did your fingers slip on the keys as you wrote "encourage" or are you intentionally trying to be sensational?
    I see that someone has been at you trying to convince you that we NEED them. Glad to see you are smart enough to know it's poppycock. And they actually expect for us to swallow that crap. "Our country has benefitted by immigration all of these years!" That's all very nice but this is today for God's sake, not "all of those years" when we lacked workforce and the immigrants were from countries and cultures perfect willing to integrate into our society .... and very happy to do so.
    Here I completely disagree. The cooling-off should be conducted indefinitely.
     
  7. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    1. Cooperation is not freedom, but most of us feel better living in a community where cooperation is stronger than competition. Cooperation tends to reward everyone, while competition rewards only a few top winners, while making everyone else a loser. If opportunity is offered to more people, then the outcome will reflect the myriad of ideas brought to it by all those for whom opportunity opened. Outcomes are never guaranteed in any system, but cooperative systems have a far better chance of producing good outcomes. Not all socialist government systems offer more freedoms than the U.S. does, but some of the newer Democratic Socialist governments do.
    2. I'm sorry you feel the work you do should serve only your personal needs & not contribute to the community around you that actually makes the work you do possible. For some, there's no need to feed the hand of those who feed you. For some, life is all about what you can gain for yourself that's above others around you. Competition rewards only a few, but relegates the majority to loser status. Socialism is more of a cooperative system. Capitalism is more a competitive system. Competitive systems reward the few. Cooperative systems reward the many. Individual freedoms can & do exist in both systems.
    3. Some forms of socialism take away personal freedoms (as can some forms of capitalism as well), but most of the modern forms of socialism--like Democratic Socialism for example--both honor & protect individual freedoms, & are in many cases, better than the U.S. Constitution in that regard. You can't lump all "socialist" systems into one category, any more than you can lump all capitalist systems into one. Both vary a lot.
     
  8. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    On paper, Socialism is the foremost system to have but the people have to be honest. That's why in practice, Socialism fails, people are simply not honest.
     
  9. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Maybe people aren’t honest but they’re even worse if they imagine the only two alternatives are socialism or capitalism.
     
  10. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    One other big problem (part of human nature since the 'dawn of time')... laziness.

    As we study the rise and fall of different civilizations, empires, and nations, we see that it is the development of an endemic laziness that makes true Socialism impossible. So, laziness, coupled with dishonesty (about 'laziness', among other things) makes socialistic systems unworkable, and, it ultimately destroys the countries where it is adopted....

    Hint: Venezuela....
     
  11. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No doubt you imagine absolutely no corruption between industry and government occur within the US of A? I’ve yet to see any system operating on planet earth so constructed that business can’t gain special favours from government. To suggest any of these are laziness faire capitalism in it’s purest Randian form borders on delusional.
    As to socialism can we please stop pretending there’s no such thing as social democracy such as Sweden’s or Australia’s, neither of which is showing any signs of becoming unworkable. In fact Australia rode out the Glogal Fanancial Crisis (triggered by Wall St) better than any nation on earth.
     
  12. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what your point is....

    Of course there's corruption, fraud, cheating, deliberate misrepresentation, etc., etc., etc., in the 'affairs of Mankind'. There's lies and corruption among corporate board chairmen; there's lies and corruption among those applying for welfare benefits; there's lies and corruption among those who are ensconced in high positions of every religion on Earth.

    It is what we ARE... corrupt, venal, selfish, self-interested, and very determined to survive and succeed! That's why we have laws and various kinds of statutes, dating from as far back as the Code of Hummurabi!

    Good luck in finding some kind of hyperliberal, delusional 'Fairyland' where everyone is 'nice' and everything is fair. The rest of us will go on living here on Earth, which even the Christ of God said was not "his kingdom".... Link: https://biblehub.com/john/18-36.htm
     
  13. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    You're either unaware or reluctant to accept the truth that Democratic Socialist countries have as many or more individual freedoms as we do in the U.S. Many Americans are still functioning under the false propaganda of the Cold War, which blurred the distinctions between socialist & communist states. Yes, there have been corrupt, tyrannical socialist states in the past, just as there have been corrupt, tyrannical capitalist ones as well. But today's form of socialist state--the Democratic Socialist ones--are highly conscientious of individual liberties.
     
  14. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    Competition creates a few winners & lots of losers. Look at the condition it has placed our own country in today, after generations of practice here. We're discussing this because of the problems unregulated capitalism has produced. Relying on it to self correct, is doomed to failure. We need to blend socialist ideas with capitalist ones, utilizing the best from both, to work this out. It isn't, & shouldn't become, a choice between socialism & capitalism, for neither can resolve these issues working alone.
     
  15. Shonyman32

    Shonyman32 Well-Known Member

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    Without much time to discuss every part of your post I do want to say that America is far from unregulated capitalism and what I am standing up for is not a unregulated capitalism. I stand for some regulation but in a general sense especially when comparing socialism to capitalism I'll most likely take capitalism because it offers more freedoms. All socialist countries have less total freedom. There is also a reason America is the global economical superpower. (That does have many reasons though)
     
  16. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you’re willing to struggle through Ayn Rand’s great work you’ll find Galt’s Gulch near the end. Ad no, I’m not a Randian.
     
  17. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the best from both systems, let's use what works, lets not ignore what works from any system...
     
  18. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    Most Americans feel that socialism offers fewer personal freedoms than capitalism, but I think that's due less to facts than Cold War propaganda. If you mean unregulated capitalism gives you the freedom to get rich with a business that pollutes the planet, poisons the food we eat or the water we drink, or uses toxic--even carcinogenic--chemicals in the products we sell for profits, then you're right. Socialist countries probably wouldn't allow that. But insofar as personal freedoms we enjoy in our private daily lives, the Democratic Socialist countries of W Europe, are equal to the U.S. at worst, & superior to the U.S. at best.
     
  19. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [QUOTE="XploreR, post: 1070660011, member: 66263”]........If you mean unregulated capitalism gives you the freedom to get rich with a business that pollutes the planet, poisons the food we eat or the water we drink, or uses toxic--even carcinogenic--chemicals in the products we sell for profits, then you're right. Socialist countries probably wouldn't allow that. ..........[/QUOTE]
    Socialist countries wouldn’t allow that? Where does that idea come from? I see little consistent evidence on our planet for such a claim.
    As with all ideologies when supposedly applied human nature and it’s nastier attributes inevitably has it’s way.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  20. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    Socialist countries wouldn’t allow that? Where does that idea come from? I see little consistent evidence on our planet for such a claim.
    As with all ideologies when supposedly applied human nature and it’s nastier attributes inevitably has it’s way.[/QUOTE]
    When it comes to human behavior, all sides of any argument can find examples to support their views.
     
  21. Shonyman32

    Shonyman32 Well-Known Member

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    Totally unregulated capitalism isnt what I'm preaching and that is a possibility of unregulated capitalism but the biggest socialist country is the worst or second worst polluter in the world. (China)

    As far as personal freedoms go -
    I have some questions maybe you could spread some information on them.

    Does any socialist country have freedom like in our bill of rights? Freedom of speech, press, religion, guns, no illegal search among others. From what I can gather we have the free-est society socially and economically. Especially when you account for size of country.

    Edit-As time goes on we have been more and more regulated and less and less free. I want more freedom not less and socialism will take away freedoms garunteed. I'd rather fail at a business opportunity than the government give me a check.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  22. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    1. China was never a "socialist" country. China became communist in 1949, & remained communist until about 1978, when it converted its economy to a capitalist one, while keeping its communist political system. I have written many posts here on this forum describing the differences between socialist & communist systems, but few readers paid attention. But the two are NOT the same--not even similar. But the confusion between them, especially for Americans, continues.
    2. The fastest, easiest way I could think of to respond to your request was to look up "countries with the most personal freedoms" on Google. It took me to the CATO Human Freedom Index, which measures human freedoms in every country & ranks each one by how it fares in meeting that standard. The U.S. was ranked number 17, where #1 is the country with the most individual freedoms. The dozen top countries having more freedom than the U.S. were (in order): New Zealand, Switzerland, Hong Kong, Australia, Canada, The Netherlands & Denmark (tied), Ireland & UK (tied), Finland, Norway, Taiwan. several of these are whole or part socialist. The least free country in the world in 2016, when this study was done, was Syria (#162), a dictatorship. If you want to look at the complete list, here's the link:
    https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-new
    3. I don't see regulations in quite the same light as you. Most regulations are enacted for the purpose of protecting the health or safety of our citizens, wildlife or important elements of our environment. In business, many regulations are enacted to ensure fairness, or avoid monopolies, or prevent tax fraud. When new regulations address problems in these important areas, I support them. But, anyone can find cases of abuse in these regulatory laws, & like you, I oppose those regulations that were designed to promote a single company or person in an unfair way, giving them advantage or power over us, in ways that can hurt or damage us personally or as a competing business. I'm against regulations such as those. But I don't believe it helpful to simply stand against ALL regulations just because a few of them are bad. I think it better to find ways to fix the problem ones & retain the good ones.
     
    Dissily Mordentroge likes this.
  23. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I’ve been waiting for a post like this for some time. Only wish I’d made it myself.
    Ayn Rand is rolling in her grave.
     
  24. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    You 'straddle the fence' nimbly, but there's also some accuracy to your observations. Example: The German company, Bayer, Pharmaceuticals bought Monsanto last year. Does anyone imagine for a minute that Bayer is going to stop exporting "Monsanto" chemicals to parts of the planet where they are probably prohibited (until/unless a hefty bribe is paid to some bureaucracy's apparatchiks)?

    Where I think you overreach, greatly, in your assumption about the 'lilly-white' nature of Socialist countries is in your assumption that they wouldn't "allow that". Make no mistake -- nearly all countries in Europe are very 'socialistic', if not to the extremes of the government confiscating all methods of production and distribution -- and those 'socialistic' countries certainly include Germany.

    And "personal freedoms"?! Are you kidding? Germans (as an example) are forbidden to own firearms except under very rare, highly-regulated circumstances, and are further forbidden even from owning a damn KNIFE whose total length exceeds 17 centimeters (6.7 inches). And how about freedom of speech? Simply raise your straightened right arm with hand flattened in public in Germany and you have just committed a CRIME!
     
  25. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    In our future, there won't be socialism or capitalism. There will be a futuristic economic system. We're running full speed into the future. It won't be anything like the dual economic system of capitalism vs. socialism that you have have been taught.

    I don't have the wherewithal to describe what the economic system will be. That's left up to the big thinkers of tomorrow. Or should that be today with the speed at which we are advancing?
     

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