Actually bear I have been arguing about the shroud and I continually showed that you have only showed tests that have been debunked as well as the smaller percentage of evidences that favor your side and have ignored showing the full Picture of evidences that go against your side . As far as you being a mythicist you called the historical Jesus the Jesus character that may or may not have existed . This is a Jesus mythicist plain and simple . It’s akin to calling to doubt 99.9% of expert nest Testament historians and telling them that they are wrong and you know about the historical Jesus then they do . You may as well be Richard carrier who is considered by almost all Scholars as being on the fringe on this extreme position . And no I haven’t posted anything resembling a straw man . This is you making false accusations to try to impinge my reputation to make up for the fact that you haven’t done a thorough study on the subject at hand thinking a Wikipedia link suddenly makes you right and me wrong . I have already accomplished my original mission here which was to expose atheism for its foundation of emotion instead of a claimed foundation based on science reason and logic like you guys continually tell us you hold to .
I always have nice days, albeit some are more challenging than others, but all are Blessings from God, and the day He calls me home will be the best.
Brother Bippy, I sincerely appreciate your further insights into this incredible phenomena, and the mannere in which you present evidence and reply to our little group of cons. Sometimes my gator mouth is bigger than my gnat posterior end, and I appreciate your additions to the fray. I am pretty much finished here.. it has not really been a debate, as the other side does not argue the evidence presented, in fact they seem to not even have examined all the evidence presented, so it has devolved into a mere argument I can not say I am completely clueless on why this particular group are so invested in knocking Christianity in general and the evidence of our Lord and Savior resurrection and ascension.. uh.. AMEN!
As I said I have to take a few days off from here . My brain can only take being exposed to so much stupidity at one time .[/QUOTE] And yet in the end you fail to provide proof for your claim that the shroud is supernatural or your bona fides as a researcher. OK, I give up also.
Yep. Sad and pathetic. Mentally most people are still at the goat herder and spear chucker level, but as you point out less intelligent. It was obvious to me people were becoming dumber the first time I read Shakespeare and understood that Shakespeare was writing for uneducated masses.
Thanks Todd , I totally agree with you in this and that is why I’m Done as well with this debate . The problem with these atheists is not that they don’t believe in God . It’s that they hope and wish that he doesn’t exist . They fail The metric even in my eyes and I’m a Christian inclusivist . Todd don’t be so hard on yourself , my mouth also tends to run at times . It’s a trait of people that are passionate This thread is a good resource for believers but it’s an even greater source for honest seekers , lurkers and agnostics who are desperately and honestly looking for truth . The crazy part is that atheists hope and wish that they are nothing but ultimately meaningless pieces of meat . This isn’t a mentally normal way of thinking . It’s almost like a Cult . If they were truly honest with themselves about the dark road that atheism leads to they would realize that it leads to only one conclusion and that’s nihilism. At least Christopher hitchens was honest when he proclaimed that if he believed God existed he would rather be in hell with Satan then with God . God bless you my friend and keep up the good fight
And there we go, your admission that you were not here to talk about the Shroud but on you strawman mission to expose atheism, blah blah blah.
As I have said many times before, a person would have to be a very gullible lunatic to believe that the shroud is real. The Jesus character gets nailed to some wood. He croaks. They remove his corpse and good old Joe puts the bloody mess in his tomb, although he lives in a far off town. Some groupies show up and clean and wash the corpse and wrap in neatly in a shroud. The tomb is sealed up. The body disappears and when people supposedly see it they don't have a clue that it is the same character that they had spent years following around like puppy dogs. In the meantime an unknown person enters the tomb, sees the bloody shroud, and decides that it will make a great souvenir. The person then grabs the rag and takes it to his hovel. About forty years pass and then the Romans get ticked off and sack Jerusalem and the surrounding area. As the Romans are going through the ruins looking for valuables one sees the dirty pile of bloody rags and thinks that it will make a great show and tell item for the folks back in Italy. He puts it in his sack. Once back in Italy, he pulls it out to show the folks. They think he is an idiot who is suffering from the effects of chopping people to death so they don't toss it into the fireplace. Centuries pass. And then the shroud is resurrected and some nitwit shows it to the local priest. He claims it looks just like Jesus and so the tale of the shroud of Turin is believed to be real today. A giant asteroid should hit and put us out of our misery. Some have gotten too stupid to survive.
All this could be settled if you had the Jewish preachers DNA. You don't. So it is all conjecture. It could be anyone's shroud - if it's a genuine shroud..
We do have His blood type, and it matches the companion Sudarium of Oviedo. Someone, at least from that time period, who was killed in the Jerusalem area in the spring of the year.
Lots of people far smarter than you believe it to be real, including one mentioned earlier in the thread who started out disprove it but ended up a believer by looking at the scientific evidence.
Not necessarily. The shroud could have been made in the spring while pollen was around during its making. Neither does the Sudarium of Oviedo prove anything. There are many things claimed to have been touched by Jesus - A pillar that has an impression of his hands and face which he may have leaned upon. A cloth that wiped the sweat off his brow in Gethsemane etc, etc. Lots of people believe in many things, ghosts, aliens and tooth fairies - but they have no proof. Neither do you, or anyone else, have proof of the authenticity of the Shroud.
In Jerusalem? Why would they bother to plant pollen from that area centuries before pollen was known, just to impress us today? Why plant human blood on it, that specifically came from wounds? Wouldn't it be easier to use animal blood? It matches the Shroud in ways that were unknown to the alleged midieval forgers, such as blood type and pollen. See https://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm "The sudarium alone has revealed sufficient information to suggest that it was in contact with the face of Jesus after the crucifixion. However, the really fascinating evidence comes to light when this cloth is compared to the Shroud of Turin. The first and most obvious coincidence is that the blood on both cloths belongs to the same group, namely AB. The length of the nose through which the pleural oedema fluid came onto the sudarium has been calculated at eight centimetres, just over three inches. This is exactly the same length as the nose on the image of the Shroud. If the face of the image on the Shroud is placed over the stains on the sudarium, perhaps the most obvious coincidence is the exact fit of the stains with the beard on the face. As the sudarium was used to clean the man's face, it appears that it was simply placed on the face to absorb all the blood, but not used in any kind of wiping movement. A small stain is also visible proceeding from the right hand side of the man's mouth. This stain is hardly visible on the Shroud, but Dr. John Jackson, using the VP-8 and photo enhancements has confirmed its presence. The thorn wounds on the nape of the neck also coincide perfectly with the bloodstains on the Shroud. Dr. Alan Whanger applied the Polarized Image Overlay Technique to the sudarium, comparing it to the image and bloodstains on the Shroud. The frontal stains on the sudarium show seventy points of coincidence with the Shroud, and the rear side shows fifty. The only possible conclusion is that the Oviedo sudarium covered the same face as the Turin Shroud." That doesn't mean they are all false. It would be like saying because there are false scientific theories none are true. IMHO the evidence shows it is more likely true than not.
If the Shroud is from Jerusalem area around the time of Jesus pollen could have collected on it at any time in the spring, yet the cloth could have been used the next year, or the next. No reason for it to be Jesus shroud. .
No the real scientific evidence is quite clear the Shroud dates to the 13th or 14th century, the carbon dating remains the most reliable test carried out on a confirmed part of the Shroud.
There is that it can be in that range. The dating systems aren't that reliable anyway, which is why they're all over the board.
Unfortunately, people fail to realize that Jews at that time NEVER put their dead into shrouds. The dead were bandaged, wrapped around like mummies and the New Testament narrative clearly show Jesus was wrapped, not shrouded.
There is no actual evidence that the area had been repaired and the "tampering" is taken account of in the dating process, remember three separate labs were used, they all came to the same conclusion.
But not when the deceased died violently. "A definition of the Jewish burial custom pertaining to those who died a violent death can be found in Maurice Lamm's book, The Jewish Way in Death and Mourning: 10 "7. The blood that flows at the time of death may not be washed away. When there is other blood on the body that flowed during lifetime, from wounds or as a result of an operation, the washing and taharah are performed in the usual manner. "8. Where the deceased died instantaneously through violence or accident, and his body and garments are completely spattered with blood, no washing or taharah is performed. The body is placed in the casket without the clothes being removed. Only a sheet is wrapped around it, over the clothes. The blood is part of the body and may not be separated from it in death. 10. Where blood flows continually after death, the source of the flow is covered." Bonnie and Gilbert Lavoie This is why we see the bloodstains, and have found the blood flow came from wounds.
There is a lot of controversy on that, this covers both sides: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating_of_the_Shroud_of_Turin This dating has the Shroud much older: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/03/30/shroud-turin-display/2038295/ Don't forget the Sudarium of Oviedo, which tradition has it is the matching piece to the Shroud. Science has confirmed it is indeed matching, and that relic has been known from about 530 AD. https://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm Now how did that image get on the Shroud?
