Christian florist v. homosexual couple in WA

What religious beliefs? Where is the doctrinal injunction against providing such services, and why are the vast majority of Christian bakers and florists apparently unaware of such prohibitions under their religion? Are they all violating a tenet of their faith?

I reference Christian scripture and find, in Matthew, "Love thy neighbour as thyself," not "Don't bake any cakes for gay couples' weddings!"

 

“Crimes against children?”

Good luck with that

What society makes illegal one liberal activist judge can change with the stroke of a pen

Its happened before woth abortion and gay marriage

 

I can't answer your question as I am not a Christian (per se). I'm spiritual, but not religious. However, just because I may not understand the reasoning or justifications of someone's religious beliefs, that does not mean they are invalid. If a person honestly believes that they will be punished or denied by their "creator" on some judgement day, then I will respect those beliefs....even though I might not agree with them. That also does not mean that all people of the same religion need to interpret their "teaching" in the same manner and must act in lock-step.

As I have said many times, when there are multiple beliefs, cultures, and diversity in society, individual rights and those beliefs WILL clash. We will solve nothing by looking at everything as black & white based on our own beliefs. There needs to be some compromise. My idea of compromise is that business should not discriminate when selling their product, but nobody has a right to force others to participate in an event (even if it is set-up and/or delivery) that they might be religiously oppose to.

 

If you go to a hospital and they deny you care, it is pretty clear that you will suffer physical harm. If wall street brokers deny you the ability to purchase stocks, it is pretty clear that you will suffer financial harm. So yes I agree with the sentiment that denial of service can produce harm.

In the context of a florist denying service to a gay wedding when there were a wealth of alternatives I do not believe that the denial of service produced any physical or financial harm to the gay couple but did produce anger. They in response have introduced financial harm to the florist. I am totally with the florist on this one. Under the circumstances, the actions of the gay couple are less than admirable especially since it was the event that made the florist nervous not the gay couple. There are Christians that believe they sin greatly against God if they participate in such events.

 

It it’s illegal currently. Why can you not answer the question? There are churches that still discriminate with interracial couples.

Or are you saying that no one wants to discriminate against these groups?
Nationwide. In a country of 300 million plus.
Have some integrity

Yes, out of pocket, there are a few grants available (at taxpayer expense) but not for everything and excludes some businesses and rarely covers the full cost.

 

How is it you don't see that facilitating something God calls an abomination violates the conscience of many Christians? In any event, it doesn't matter if you understand it or not.

Calling evil good when dealing with one on the way to hell isn't love, and knowingly enabling sin is itself a sin, IMHO. A huge difference between this and selling a donut and coffee to a gay, or an alcoholic, or a pedophile. I wouldn't make a cake for a pedophile wedding to a child either, would you?

 

They don't do so with any NT backup, which is why courts have rightly never sanctioned such religiously-claimed discrimination. Next problem.

 

Exactly, and someone needs to tell the snowflakes there is no Constitutional right to not have their feelings hurt.

 

I don't see a connection between crimes against children and gay marriage/abortion. Do you have information on parents becoming comfortable voting for judges that condone such acts? Its not like religion is the answer. (Just ask an altar boy!)

 

Please quote where god or Jesus called homosexuality or homosexual unions an abomination.

Pedophiles are committing a crime against a child that cannot consent.
Gay couples have full consent and are committing no crime.

 

Under law, one cannot arbitrarily evoke a "religious belief" as a license to discriminate whenever one feels so inclined.

Religious beliefs are set forth in religious doctrine that can be cited. I know of no such taboo concerning baking cakes, nor does the vast majority of Christian bakers, apparently. One might claim, "I can't bake a cake for a bald guy's wedding, because it offends my religious beliefs!", but, unless he can point to such an anathema concerning depilated individuals, he cannot arbitrarily discriminate.

 

As opposed to laws made by invisible sky aliens...

ToS are a real and legal (mans law) contract, if the gay couple violated the florist’s ToS then I will side with her. Care to post her ToS that the couple agreed to?

 

You will when the courts decide that children have a constitutional right to sex at any age

 

Well jeeze, we should send you back in time to tell that black woman we don’t care if her feelings are hurt from sitting at the back of the bus. Would have saved a lot of time.

Glad your expert opinion is now available!

 

All religious belief is subjective.
Cite the verse that states a florist must not make an arrangement at a wedding.

I noticed you deleted the reminder of my post, unable to reconcile the point with your opinion?

Does the Bible speak of integrity?

 

so does a florist sell straight flowers and not want to sell gay flowers... lol

flowers are the same regardless who you sell them too

just sell the flowers

he is free to stop selling flowers if his religion prevents him from doing so without discriminating

yep, most businesses see a sale as a sale, most are not trying to push religion on their customers

 

Romans 1:26-28 - 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Luke 17:3: "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Don't expect you to understand.

 

Where are these parents you speak of? Any judge that condones such acts has a lot more to worry about than not getting reelected. Parents will not stand for that.

Back on topic, I am okay with the right to refuse service for any reason as long as the rules are the same for everyone.

 

churches are allowed to discriminate, they are not businesses - businesses open to the public are not allowed to discriminate

 

I understand! Homosexuality existed before religion. Homosexuality exists in nature while religion is an invention of man.

 

Should a black baker be required to make a cake with racial epitaphs and the racially offensive image of Memin Pinguin on it? After all he must waive some of his rights once he filed for that business license. Should his business be shut down if he refuses?

Racial epitaphs and the image of Memin Pinguin may be offensive to the Black baker, they are not illegal to say or display, like Nazi's displaying the swastika. The 14th amendment guarantees equal protection under the law, that would mean the white supremacist and the racist would have the same rights to force a baker to make them a cake as the gay couple. There is NO legal grounds for the baker to refuse to make the racially offensive cake other than it offends him, should he be forced to make it?

 

"
1 Timothy 2:9
9 Likewise, the women should adorn themselves in appropriate* dress, with modesty and soundness of mind,* not with styles of hair braiding and gold or pearls or very expensive clothing,a
"

anyone think a florist or baker would turn down someone dressed like that?

 

I kinda wonder about this case, sense they are friends, do either have donation sites set up, maybe they agreed to do this fight and split the donations

 

The bible certainly has no shortage of Abominations!

Regarding Roe v Wade, the Law of the Land:

Proverbs 28:9: If one turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination.
​

And don't eat pork!

How is it that you speak for "God'? What "God" orders bakers not to bake cakes?

In addition to Christian bakers routinely baking cakes without discriminating, there are Christian gay couples being married by Christian ministers in Christian churches celebrated by Christian congregants.

Gender discrimination in marriage is illegal.

Would it have "violated the conscience of many" when interracial marriage was legalized? No doubt about it.

Under Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967), the U.S. Supreme Court struck down all state laws banning interracial marriage as violations of the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. The case was brought by Mildred Loving (née Jeter), a woman of color, and Richard Loving, a white man, who had been sentenced to a year in prison in Virginia for marrying each other. Their marriage violated Virginia's Racial Integrity Act of 1924, which criminalized marriage between people classified as "white" and people classified as "colored".

As with same sex couples, I have no doubt that there were bakers who refused to bake cakes for interracial weddings, even after equality under law was achieved.

Yet, no "God" ever said anything about whom you can or cannot bake cakes for.

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you,
for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 7:12​

 

I guess it is a southern attitude. Personally, if I (a conservative religious southern man) were a florist or cake baker, and a gay couple asked me to create something for their wedding, I would ask them what they wanted, what time, and I would quote them a price. I personally don't understand refusing customers for anything that is legal (as long as their money is green). Now, if they asked for some thing like a penis on the cake, I might refuse that, but it wouldn't matter the gender/orientation of the customer for that.