Trump cuts relations with British Ambassador

Discussion in 'United States' started by Doug1943, Jul 9, 2019.

  1. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Someone who wants to hurt both Britain and the UK has leaked a memo which no doubt expresses the sentiments of every other ambassador in Washington, not to speak of most of the world. Our own diplomats make frank assessments of other governments, and we have been injured before by the actions of traitors when these were made public.

    Now I know what it's like to be an educated African who has the misfortune to be the citizen of one of their joke-republics. All of your friends have to suppress their impolite smiles when your 'leader' says another insane thing, or is found with human body parts in his refrigerator. This man is our Bokassa.

    At least in those countries, the dictator gets replaced from time to time by another one, although it's usually a savage brute being replaced by a brutal savage.

    In our case, the Democrats will probably nominate a Politically Correct lunatic as the replacement choice next year.

    We have lost the Mandate of Heaven.
     
  2. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    " He called me a ninny head so I'm gonna go home".
     
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  3. fiddlerdave

    fiddlerdave Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Waaahhhh! Waaahhhhh!

    Why do people keep pickin' on me?

    Donald Trump
     
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  4. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Has no one noticed the mistake in my first sentence in the first post? Of course, I meant both Britain and the US.
    It's in the interests of both countries to have the best possible relationship. Indeed, in the world as it is, it's in the interest of all the liberal democracies, and even the half-liberal-democracies, to stick together wherever we can.

    And it's in the interests of the big dictatorships, and of the Islamists, to drive us apart.

    It would be nice to think that all leaders, certainly the leaders of the democracies, carry out their foreign policy on the basis of rational calculation of self-interest.

    But we're all human. And there have been cases of otherwise-shrewd national leaders making catastrophic mistakes based on personal ego.

    The supreme example of this is Mr Hitler. He was engaged in a war on two fronts, had just invaded the Soviet Union and, contrary to the usual confident predictions, had not overrun the place in three months ... when Japan attacked the US. That attack had a certain logic but what Hitler then did had no logic at all: he gratuitously declared war on the US. He didn't have to. It made not one ounce of sense to do it. The American people, as a result of Pearl Harbor, were white-hot in their anger against the Japanese, and, in Churchill's words, planned to "grind them to powder". But they had no interest in getting involved in yet another European war to defend the British Empire (except for the American Communists, who had been shrilly anti-war for the duration of the Hitler-Stalin pact, and then of course changed their position by 180 degrees when their true homeland was invaded by Hitler in June of '41.)

    But President Roosevelt had been goading Hitler, both by helping the British however he could short of war, and by personal insults against Hitler. Exactly the right thing to do. And Hitler fell for it, thank God.

    Hitler was not insane. In fact, he was an intelligent man, and knew how to play the diplomats of Europe in the years before he went to war. He was able to use the "I was a soldier, I know how terrible war is" line, he made jokes about the Nazi Party ... he told the nice decent liberal-minded diplomats and leaders of France and Britain just what they wanted to hear. And then he struck. He did misjudge the British and French response to his final move, but he didn't misjudge their woeful military incapacity.

    Now we need someone in the White House who is a cool, rational calculator, able to upend decades of our assumptions if necessary, able to take into account new realities.

    We need someone like Richard Nixon.
     
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  5. bx4

    bx4 Well-Known Member

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    To be honest I don’t see what other reaction he or any other president could have.
    The ambassador was correct in his assessment and correct in passing his unvarnished assessment to his superiors.

    However, once this was leaked the president had no choice but to make him persona non grata. There will be another ambassador who quickly reaches exactly the same conclusions - conclusions that every thinking person already knows. But as long as Trump isn’t aware that everyone knows he is a low-intellect moron, he will allow people to stay around. I doubt he will ever know how many people hold him in complete disdain and laugh at him behind his back.
     
  6. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't know anything about diplomatic protocol, so if there is 'no choice' then there is 'no choice'.

    But think how much better it would have been for Trump to have been gracious about this, to have made some reference
    to the well-worn definition of a diplomat, "a man sent abroad to lie for the good of this country", perhaps some statement to
    the effect that the British too have recently experienced some turmoil within their own government so they should be more sympathetic,
    maybe a joke about "Well, they can say what they like, as long as they don't burn Washington down again, not that some Americans wouldn't like to see that."

    The ability to laugh at yourself is a good sign -- it shows you are not completely captive to your own ego, that you have the capacity to see the world from
    the viewpoint of others and to be self-critical. This capacity in an enemy is actually dangerous -- it tends to disarm you. Hitler could fake it when he needed to lull naive leaders of other countries.

    John F Kennedy had it, and it helped make him an effective leader. The danger is that your enemies will take it as a sign of weakness, as Khruschev apparently did.
    Ronald Reagan, no towering intellect but a shrewd man, had it also. No one thought that he was weak.

    Somewhere, in the Democratic and Republican ranks, there must be some Kennedys and Reagans. Let them come forward now.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
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  7. HTownMarine

    HTownMarine Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Flip the script.

    Imagine if a US ambassador said that about the leader of an allied country...

    Imagine the outrage you would see from the left about how thats not nice and Trump's people are all incompetent and we're on the verge of starting WW3.
     
  8. Libby

    Libby Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure why people are trying to make this about Trump ---- it sounds like Trump doesn't even know the man, and the criticisms were about the administration in general, and were being made by a man who was already considered to be too "pro-Europe".

    It sounds like a good call to cut ties with this British Ambassador. His job should be held by someone relatively open-minded and neutral. It is not a job for someone with their own strong preconceived notions and agenda clouding their judgement.
     
  9. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Can you imagine the left is a UK ambassador said something bad about Obama? LOL, racist, etc..
     
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  10. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    The same comments have been said by those that Trump appointed and then sacked from his government
     
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  11. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is undoubtedly true. In fact, something similar to this happened a few years ago, via the vile Julian Assange and Wikileaks.

    Then the question is, how should the President, or King, or Dictator, of the country that the American ambassador had criticized, react?

    Simple: he should decide what's good for his country -- to keep the Americans as allies, or not -- and react accordingly. Once you've taken on the responsibility of leading a country, you're no longer a private individual. You should do what's good for your country, even if you don't like it personally.

    Richard Nixon decided that it was in the interests of the United States to recognize Communist China. That meant he had to go there, , smile, shake hands with Mao ... and Nixon was a hardline anti-Communist.

    [​IMG]

    Now Trump has sometimes said things, and even done things, that have appeared to show that he understands how to play this game.

    Of course the Left have screamed bloody murder when he has done this -- they've suddenly discovered the virtue of 'standing up to the dictators' etc. We can dismiss their eructations with a wave of the hand. People who don't denounce Hilary's pal Al Sharpton have lost the right to criticize anyone.

    But here Trump has reacted as if this is a personal insult made by a private person. He may not know this, but this ambassador's assessment of the Trump White House is held by 99% of the rest of the world's leaders ... it's just that some of them figure they can use this to their advantage.

    He should have just made a joke of it, and moved on. That would have given him the high moral ground, and would have put the British ambassador in an embarrassing place, and might even have been grounds for getting an extra concession or two in negotiations later.
     
  12. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There are ways to do these things, and there are ways not to do these things. In a very short time, the British will be led by someone who is decidedly anti-Europe, or at least anti-the-EU's-controlling-Britain. They will have every interest in a closer relationship with the United States. No doubt the new Prime Minister's outlook will be reflected in a shake-up of diplomatic personnel. Now, if the British ambassador is replaced, whoever does it will look like he or she is caving in to the Americans, and in particular to Donald Trump. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
     
  13. Libby

    Libby Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. If the British Ambassador is replaced it will simply look like they fired someone who f'ed up and wasn't worthy of the job. It's not "caving to Americans" to fire someone when it is entirely justified.

    British officials have already apologized. It is the UK, and their Ambassador, with egg on their faces because of this ---- not the US or Trump.

    And did you see Trump's tweet? He was still gracious towards the Queen. But the Ambassador's actions/biases were pretty indefensible. Even the UK apologized for it.

    The Ambassador f'ed up and someone ratted him out, and these are the repercussions. That's pretty straightforward.
     
  14. Dutch

    Dutch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, not that, my friend. Trump deals in-kind, chews gum and takes numbers. And he's been out of gum for a very loooooong time :applause:

    Not happy about it? Of course you aren't.
     
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  15. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    “I will be apologizing for the fact that either our civil service or elements of our political class have not lived up to the expectations that either we have or the United States has about their behavior, which in this particular case has lapsed in a most extraordinary and unacceptable way” ~ UK Trade Minister Liam Fox
     
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  16. AKS

    AKS Banned

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    I've never read a description less like trump. But of course you, the british ambassador, and the world know this.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  17. AKS

    AKS Banned

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    Dude, this was a secret cable! It was (apparently) a candid observation observation never meant for public consumption! For what ever it's worth, the ambassador truly thought trump to be an incompetent buffoon. Who woulda thought?
     
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  18. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    This is about The Don’s thin skin it has not a damn thing to do with Democrats
     
  19. AKS

    AKS Banned

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    Are you friggin serious?
    How the f*ck did the ambassador f up? Because he made an objective observation? That is, you know, like, HIS JOB!
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
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  20. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I really hope this represents the settled overwhelming opinion of the UK ruling elite, and, even more, of its population.
    At a minimum, I expect Labour to play the patriotic card, although since their current leader hates his own country almost as much as he hates the US, that will be hard to do.
     
  21. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

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    True - and that always causes hyper-sensitive Trump to strike out irrationally. For Trump, it's always all about Trump

    Trump may have believed that his incompetence and instability were national secrets, just leaked to the global community.

    His petty reaction to the world being informed of what everyone already knew is, predictably, to strike out hysterically at any personal criticism.

    Trump's signature sulking, brooding, and lashing out only confirms the ambassador's candid estimation of Fake Don, compiled, not to publicly disrespect him, but to dutifully provide the diplomat's nation with cogent insight, however redundant.
    The security problem is Britain's. The insecurity problem's is America's.

    Why, when every nation on earth has virtually the same psychological profile of the bungling mendacious narcissist, does its get leaked?
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  22. Libby

    Libby Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad you shared this. It tends to support the idea that it's the UK who is in a bad light over this; not the US, and certainly not Trump specifically.


    Your TDS is effecting your judgement as much as it was effecting the Ambassador's ;) This wasn't even about Trump ---- who said he doesn't even really know the guy ---- these were politically biased comments against the administration in general, from an Ambassador whom people already worried was too pro-Europe.
     
  23. bx4

    bx4 Well-Known Member

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    I agree he has to be replaced, but not because he screwed up. He did his job, and did it well. Those cables should have remained confidential.

    The UK government should spare no effort in finding the traitor who leaked the cables.

    He needs to be replaced because his position has been compromised in the eyes of Trump. Regardless of his skills, he is now ineffective in the role.

    But he was 100% correct in his assessment of Trump and he was doing his job in passing that assessment on to London.
     
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  24. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    LOL The apology was for the emails being leaked, not the contents of the emails! And the emails were about the way Trump operates his government

    We don't yet know who leaked them - it could have been someone linked to the White House - the emails were probably written while the ambassador was in the US
     
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  25. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    Just in case you did not get it, no apology was made for the contents in the cable
     

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