This Country Needs to Split

I wouldn't go that far, but unilateral secession is illegal for sure.

 

There didn't use to be, but there certainly are now. The left has moved forward with an all out assault on the culture, traditions, and Constitution of this country. And (somewhat to their credit), they NEVER compromise on anything. Not ever. They'll get the AR15's banned. A month later someone will kill someone with a Glock, then the march will be on to be ban them. Then they'll ban revolvers, hunting rifles, etc. Anyone with any sense at all knows what the left's ultimate goal is. Hell prominent democrats openly state they want guns banned. That's why they can't be given an inch, because they take a mile

 

Unilateral secession would be useless in terms of our discussion here. Far too many mixed states, and the States that would want to secede would likely unite anyway, due to shared ideologies.

All of that aside, because of its frivolity, IF there were a move, or several moves towards that end, it would ultimately spark another all out civil war anyway, because those acts, (singular or United) would meet with crushing federal response, and those with relatives and loved ones in those areas, would naturally revolt against the federal reprisals.

 

I don't think a federal response would go well for the government.

 

And pie in the sky leftist promises.

 

They aren't just going to sit and suck it.

 

Maybe, maybe not. Would just depend on how big of a 'movement' it was.

 

Well yeah.

I mean AssHats protesting for it is one thing. A state actively removing elected federal representatives, and essentially closing any and all access to their state, is another.

One is protest.

The other Secession.

 

There were what, approximately 65 million Trump voters? Let's say just 50% of those were able-bodied men. Most of which are gun owners. Also, most of the military, active and former, lean to the right, as well as law enforcement. Our total active military is around what, 2 million? A lot of which are overseas. And again, most would side with the conservatives.

People here seem to think that if secession takes place, it would be conservatives seeking their independence from an overreaching liberal government right? The numbers simply aren't on the liberal governments side.

 

Personally it would be great if the country could 'unite', but unless both parties reign in their fringe nutcases (a lot of which are now in government positions), it's not going to happen

 

I more consider that left leaning states would secede. Leftists have a problem with the Constitution, or adhering to it. They would want to create their own Venezuela. ... Erm, I mean Socialist Utopia.

 

I agree.

 

In that case, I have a hard time believing that most conservatives, especially a guy like Trump, would try to stop them.

 

Good point...

 

So bilateral secession qualifies as treason?

 

Pretty sure it all qualities. Not well versed in constitutional law.

That would be revolution..

I think you mean multilateral anyway. Pretty sure more than 2 states would want to secede.

 

There is a lot in what you say. I admit there is necessarily a strong element of subjectivity in my thinking -- when I see strong males calling themselves women, taking part in women's athletics, or colleges saying we mustn't use the word 'American' to describe US citizens because it's more inclusive than that, or the San Francisco Board of Education painting over a mural of George Washington -- painted by a Communist in the 30s to draw attention to the irony of a free nation expanding at the expense of others -- I think hear the stall warning beginning to sound and I want to bail out because the pilot is going to just carry on. But I actually lived -- as a child, experiencing it through my parents -- through the McCarthy period, and we came back from that.

I still think we're going down, though. I think the word 'American' is just becoming a legal definition for a lot of people.

Yes, foreign policy will be tricky. Here's the really tricky part: in the past, the Left was less militaristic than the Right, often by a long way, depending on how you defined 'Left': the Democratic 'Senator from Boeing' (whose name I forget at the moment) was obviously miles away from the Nation magazine. (Of course the Republicans were isolationists until Ike, and neither Republican nor Democrat were particularly militaristic.) And I suppose this distinction remained true after the collapse of the Soviet Union, although I don't recall much difference when Clinton was in office and we got involved in Somalia and the former Yugoslavia. Iraq was different, but now, after 15 years, I can promise you that there is FAR less interest on the Right -- in the base -- in overseas interventions to bring awareness of Lesbian Rights to the warring tribes of Absurdistan. Those bumper stickers on the pickups may have said "These colors don't run" but they seem to have faded away. I don't know how much attention you have paid to this forum but there has recently been a lot of discussion of Major Tulsi Gabbard, and a lot of us reactionaries and several Lefties have formed a kind of informal Tulsi Fan Club, and not just because she's beautiful. . As you say, dialogue not differnce.

I have relatives in South Texas who are my focus group for things like attitude to overseas wars. I'm the only college-educated one among them of my generation and for one generation down. We were all FDR Democrats until 1972 or thereabouts -- now they're all Republicans, think Obama is a Muslim, etc. Several vets among them but no warmongers any more.

But the real kicker is Israel. It's a non-negotiable question on much of the Right (with the exception of the Buchanan Paleo-Right but they are just an intellectual current, not a tendency with support at the bottom. I don't know how that will play out. I think Israel's popularity is fading on the Left pretty fast, as the Religious folks over there move towards a position of dominance and prepare the endgame of annexing the West Bank. A tragedy. I suppose a 'Red State Republic' would pledge to do whatever we're told to by Israel, and a 'Blue State Republic' would gradually drift towards having the attitude of European states. I don't know how to play this one. How would our joined-at-the-hip militaries respond to a call to invade Iran? A toughie. Jump off that bridge when we come to it, I suppose.

As for demographics. I have stressed over and over to my fellow rightwingers that they mustn't entertain even for a second the idea of a Whiteman's Republic. I'm optimistic that if we were really sincere about it, we'd get a lot of Jews, Indians, Chinese, Vietnamese, and Hispanic and Black vets and policemen and small business owners. Of course, that assumes I'm right about the trajectory that the Blue Republic would take, which I of course see as one that will repel ordinary people. But if we just ended up as a bunch of grumpy old white folks, then you're right. And if what I see happening to America is just modernity modulated by a bit of American crazyness-- then it will infect our younger generations as well. That would actually be my hope on issues like abortion. If Ireland can get the dead hand of the Church off its throat, why can't we do something similar? (Although I have hopes that the advance of technology and medicine will allow the abortion issue to become moot in some way -- either no woman will get pregnant unless she wants to, or if she does a simple trip to the fetus-transfer clinic will earn her a thousand dollars and the baby will be raised in an artificial womb and go to a loving home.

Another demographics issue, one that no one wants to talk about. The Left look forward with glee to the whites becoming a minority in the US. Now if this minority is made up of nearly 50% whites and lots of bits and pieces of everything else then it might work out. If you look at Australia's ethnic mix among immigrants, it looks consciously planned to have 3% of this and 4% of that. Perfect. Given vigorous intermarriage they'll move toward the human race of the future. But ... if we have a country that is 40% Hispanic and 40% white and 15% Black ... I can see trouble. In almost all other countries, Diversity is not Strength, but mass murder. Maybe such a country will evolve into a Latin American style pigmentocracy, with a white market-dominant top caste, but I think even that would be shaky.

One of the personal experiences that left a deep impression on me was finding out that my Tamil, Azerbaijani, Armenian and Chinese friends and acquaintances were partisans of their tribes first, and humanist-democrats second, or not at all if their nations were in an existential conflict with others. No time to elaborate on that one .... three different experiences ... but it's one of my most bitter complaints against the academic Left that they are pushing identity politics, which I think is the real fracture liine in the US. I tell my skeptical conservative pals that the Old Left, in its own way, loved America -- that they didn't give up on the white workers here, even though 80 years ago those workers were far more socially backward than they are now -- it was Black and White, Unite and Fight (the bosses).

No longer. And although there is almost as much humbug preached around 'patriotism' as there is around adolescent sex with older men, I note that, given the record of our racial minorities serving honorably in the military, American patriotism is almost automatically a strong weapon against racism, or can be if refracted in the right way. There's a nice video I've posted a couple of times here of the Patriot Guard escorting the ashes of a fallen Black Marine from California to Georgia -- all those scary-looking guys with their tatooes and beards and denims riding their Harleysl wiith American flags everywhere -- let a neo Nazi or Klansman turn up at that gathering and see what happens... and then I see these antiFa idiots burning the American flag, others pulling it down and running up the Mexican flag... and I say, this can't last, time to go.

There are lots of other issues -- you would fear that we would immediately start burning fossil fuels just out of spite, and repeal all the environmental laws keeping us from dumping toxic waste into the rivers that flow into your country, etc.

We disagree about the cultural differences, but of course when I look at America it's a tiny sample that I see and definitely non-random.

Agree about the Greeks. I've always wondered how the same ethnic group, on the same geography, could come up with two such radically different societies. I'm a big fan of Mary Renault, of whom I would bet good money you know and have read, and have always regretted that she did not turn her hand to producing a psychologically-plausible account of Sparta before she died. There was one author who tried a few years ago, as I recall -- Sparta just before Themopylae -- but he made them seem like a 1970s San Francisco hippie commune in bronze armor. I'm just now reading Donald Kagan's book on the Peloponesian Wars -- I've never really understood what they were fighting about. And of course all the talk, on the Right, is about the Thucydides Trap -- which an amicable divorce might allow us to avoid, because we wouldn't have to square off with China.

Thank you for your interesting reply. I hope you stick around and contribute further, and not just on my treasonous proposal.

 

Well .. maybe it won't happen. But ... we don't know what the Old Mole of history is doing down under there in the consciousness of people.

I lived for a few months in the Soviet Union in 1985. On the outside, it looked solid. I think Paul Samuelson and John Kenneth Galbraith wrote things about
how it was going to be around for a long long time. In fact, I think every professonal Sovietologist just took that for granted.

But I got to do a bit of travelling and speaking to people (I had brought my microcomputer and a little monitor and gave some talks on microcomputers and education out in Siberia and back in Estonia), and I came to the tentative conclusion, as I put it to my then-wife, that we might see the end of the USSR within our lifetimes. Little did I know. Gorbachev was a historic accident, and yet the ground for him had been prepared.

The material circumstances of the ordinary people were not so bad, but their intellectual elite was, I could tell, deeply discontent. Capitalism had won the day in their minds.

Totally different with the US --- the analogy though is, I believe that our upcoming next generation of the ruling elite is pretty fed up with America and wants to get rid of it -- of the old America. They despise us. So who knows what will happen?

 

First off, there are more then two sides in this country; many people belong to minor political parties and the number of independents (non-affiliated voters) continues to grow as more people become disgusted with the two major parties. Look for third parties to sprout and grow over time.

That being said, It'll make it so much easier for the Russians/Chinese to take over America without firing a shot. There is strength in numbers; when you conquer a divided America, the numbers shrink and are less powerful to those who have greater then them.

There can be no peaceful separation since each state has people of many different political viewpoints who will be unwilling to relocate. Nobody wins in a war; each side will lose people needlessly since a war is totally unnecessary.

People just need to chill out and put their cultural and political differences aside and work as one regardless of pressure put on them by extreme elements of their political parties.

 

*shrugs*.

In the words of Trump, "We'll see what happens".

 

Do you see a realistic way this will happen?

Personally, I think it's only going to get worse.

 

How would you envisage the Russians and Chinese taking over America? (The two new Red and Blue American republics.)
An invasion? Or how?

And if you're a Blue living in Red state, why would you have to relocate? You're already happy to live in a Red state. And vice versa. California has Tea Party people -- why should they leave, unless they wanted to?

We're not talking Greeks and Turks on Cyprus, or Serbs and Bosniacs and Croats in the former Yugoslavia. We're talking about a peaceful political separation. Probably the average person wouldn't notice much of a difference, just like the average Estonian didn't notice a huge change when his country left the Soviet Union.

A peaceful separation would actually improve relations between 'Reds' and 'Blues' because we wouldn't be fighting each other over who runs the government. Blues could get on with making a new, more socialistic and fair America -- a giant California. Reds could get on with going back to a more tradtional, unfair America. Everybody would be happy!

 

In the words of Cassius,
Men at some time are masters of their fates:
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings.