Abortionists killing babes after birth? Infanticide okay?

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Iron_Merc, Oct 23, 2019.

  1. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Duh - animate does not come from inanimate. The sperm is both alive -and human. This does not make it a living human.

    Don't tell me you still don't understand the difference between a noun and a descriptive adjective.
     
  2. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is not my place to force my religious beliefs on others through physical violence. You feel differently - in the same way as the radical Islamist extremists.

    There is a difference between 1) having a belief and 2) forcing that belief on others through physical violence.

    Unfortunately you have yet to figure out that this is the main teaching of Jesus.
     
  3. Iron_Merc

    Iron_Merc Banned

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    The founding father's were overwhelmingly conservative. Just as I am. I don't hate any of the principles set forward. And again, they didn't envision 60,000,000 dead babies on the doorstep of America, now did they?

    Thank God for Trump's conservative judges. They understand the constitution in it's original and intended context.

    Think about it....no Apple computers? Oh, that's right. What we don't have we could never miss. Liberal paradox # 4083

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are talking gibberish - The founders believed in the principles of Classical Liberalism - the DOI is based on those principles. Republicanism also adheres to the same principles.

    The majority of modern conservatives hate the founding principles - and don't know they - just as you don't know them.


    Think about it .. No Hitler, No Stalin .. and so on.

    Such a dumb argument... not your worst but, pretty bad.
     
  5. Iron_Merc

    Iron_Merc Banned

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    anti natalist much?

    In case you didn't notice, it's not a religious belief it's called the successful continuation of the species. If liberals had it their way, we could collectively commit suicide as a species in as little as 100 years. Brilliant logic, absolutely brilliant.

    Please don't tell me you are one of those guys who think's Jesus was a communist hippie who smoked reefer all the time?
     
  6. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Jobs was pro choice - and was all good with his mother having an abortion.
     
  7. Iron_Merc

    Iron_Merc Banned

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    Actually this is where you are wrong. There is no gibberish being spoken here you merely misunderstand and misinterpret the ideology and the mindset of our founding fathers. Need I remind you of Lincoln's speech:

    But you say you are conservative - eminently conservative - while we are revolutionary, destructive, or something of the sort. What is conservatism? Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried? We stick to, contend for, the identical old policy on the point in controversy which was adopted by "our fathers who framed the Government under which we live;" while you with one accord reject, and scout, and spit upon that old policy, and insist upon substituting something new. True, you disagree among yourselves as to what that substitute shall be. You are divided on new propositions and plans, but you are unanimous in rejecting and denouncing the old policy of the fathers. Some of you are for reviving the foreign slave trade; some for a Congressional Slave-Code for the Territories; some for Congress forbidding the Territories to prohibit Slavery within their limits; some for maintaining Slavery in the Territories through the judiciary; some for the "gur-reat pur-rinciple" that "if one man would enslave another, no third man should object," fantastically called "Popular Sovereignty;" but never a man among you is in favor of federal prohibition of slavery in federal territories, according to the practice of "our fathers who framed the Government under which we live." Not one of all your various plans can show a precedent or an advocate in the century within which our Government originated. Consider, then, whether your claim of conservatism for yourselves, and your charge or destructiveness against us, are based on the most clear and stable foundations.
     
  8. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are contradicting yourself. You stated that the zygote has a soul - which has been your only support for your claim that a zygote is a living human (sans DNA which is bunk) . This is a religious belief.

    Why is it that you are so desperate to avoid the discussion of the teachings of Jesus by making nonsense accusations ?
     
  9. Iron_Merc

    Iron_Merc Banned

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    Imagine a world without Apple computers... it could have happened.

    60,000,000 lives snuffed out... think of all the potential lost.

    You hang humanity out to dry when you commit to the murder of unborn children.

    The fact remains, abortion has devastating effects on society.

    [​IMG]

    This little guy is defenseless and innocent and you think Im the one in the wrong for defending him or her? Say what?
     
  10. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You have no clue what Classical Liberalism is. That much is clear. The DOI is based on the principles of Classical Liberalism - this is not a subject that is debated by anyone who knows anything about the founding principles.

    None of the above relates to the topic conversation = Your absurd claim that the DOI was not based on the principles of Classical Liberalism.
     
  11. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Imagine a world with out radical Islamist extremist ideology - like yours :)

    Imagine a world where we made law on the basis of logic and reason - and not religious zealotry - which is what the founders envisioned.

    Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
    -- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82
     
  12. Iron_Merc

    Iron_Merc Banned

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    No, Im not contradicting myself.
    It's called Natalism

    You keep bringing up Jesus and what is a CHINO exactly?

    I'd be more than happy to talk to you about Jesus and how his message relates to abortion.
     
  13. Iron_Merc

    Iron_Merc Banned

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    Do you agree with him?

    He doesn't talk about the millions of innocent men women and children that have been saved (and redeemed) by Jesus, now does he?

    So you do or do not believe in an all powerful God?

    When the DOI says "endowed" by our "creator"
    What is your interpretation of "creator"?
     
  14. Iron_Merc

    Iron_Merc Banned

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    Do you really not remember why people came from England to America? Did that get lost in the shuffle?
     
  15. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    CHINO - Christian in Name Only .. never heard the term RINO ... sorry for the acronym .. thought you would know it .. my bad.

    100% you are in contradiction. Your claim that your angst against abortion is not based - at least in part - on religious belief is pure self deception.

    Jesus doesn't mention abortion.

    You want to force your religious (or personal - doesn't have to be religious) beliefs on others through physical violence "Law".

    You don't understand the difference between 1) having a belief and 2) forcing that belief on others through physical violence (Law)

    The Golden Rule - do unto others as you would have done to you. The social contract is based in this rule - which is one of the ideas behind the founding principles.

    Simply put - if you don't want others forcing their religious beliefs on you though physical violence - don't do this to others.

    The rest of the Bible is just commentary.
     
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  16. kiwimac

    kiwimac Well-Known Member

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    The Bible is clear. A fully human life begins with the first breath prior to that breath a foetus is only a potential human.
     
  17. Iron_Merc

    Iron_Merc Banned

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    Of course my claim is based in part on a religious belief. But one does not need to have faith in God to be a Natalist. That's the only point I'm illustrating.

    There is no self deception going on here - the only self deception that is here is from you not realizing that abortion is a religious debate at it's core. It's an issue of morality and there is a higher court than SCOTUS.
     
  18. Iron_Merc

    Iron_Merc Banned

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    The uterus or womb is the cradle of life not a death chamber.

    Let me ask you this, do you think God is pro choice?
     
  19. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Jefferson does talk fondly of Jesus - I agree with him 100%. Christianity was a horror show for 1000 years - and you don't know a single person who was saved from hell by Jesus.

    The founders specifically chose the word "Creator" so as not to invoke the Christian God.

    I do believe in God - what the nature of God's power are - is not a question one can answer.

    What I don't believe is the depiction of God as some flip flopping irrational xenophobic genocidal maniac with the most petty and nasty of human characteristics... and that somehow 1000 years later - a blink of an eye in God time - that God changed - and became all "love neighbor as self" "Judge not" "let ye who is without cast the first stone" .. and so on.

    These are two different Gods being described.

    So - do you believe that Jesus lost is faith at the end ? that his God had forsaken him ? After all - Jesus thought that "faith" could move mountains - yet his faith was not enough to save him.

    Or do you believe that the dude hanging on the cross was God - in such masochistic ecstasy that he forgot who he was - and started calling out to himself - claiming that he had forsaken himself ....
     
  20. Iron_Merc

    Iron_Merc Banned

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    Neither does the constitution. But the 14th amendment speaks for itself.
     
  21. Iron_Merc

    Iron_Merc Banned

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    You are using the term xenophobic- I'll ask again, are you sure you are not a liberal?

    “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46, KJV).

    It is noon, and Jesus has been on the cross for three pain-filled hours. Suddenly, darkness falls on Calvary and “over all the land” (v. 45). By a miraculous act of Almighty God, midday becomes midnight.

    This supernatural darkness is a symbol of God’s judgment on sin. The physical darkness signals a deeper and more fearsome darkness.

    The great High Priest enters Golgotha’s Holy of Holies without friends or enemies. The Son of God is alone on the cross for three final hours, enduring what defies our imagination. Experiencing the full brunt of His Father’s wrath, Jesus cannot stay silent. He cries out: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

    This phrase represents the nadir, the lowest point, of Jesus’ sufferings. Here Jesus descends into the essence of hell, the most extreme suffering ever experienced. It is a time so compacted, so infinite, so horrendous as to be incomprehensible and, seemingly, unsustainable.

    Jesus’ cry does not in any way diminish His deity. Jesus does not cease being God before, during, or after this. Jesus’ cry does not divide His human nature from His divine person or destroy the Trinity. Nor does it detach Him from the Holy Spirit. The Son lacks the comforts of the Spirit, but He does not lose the holiness of the Spirit. And finally, it does not cause Him to disavow His mission. Both the Father and Son knew from all eternity that Jesus would become the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world (Acts 15:18). It is unthinkable that the Son of God might question what is happening or be perplexed when His Father’s loving presence departs.

    Jesus is expressing the agony of unanswered supplication (Ps. 22:1–2). Unanswered, Jesus feels forgotten of God. He is also expressing the agony of unbearable stress. It is the kind of “roaring” mentioned in Psalm 22: the roar of desperate agony without rebellion. It is the hellish cry uttered when the undiluted wrath of God overwhelms the soul. It is heart-piercing, heaven-piercing, and hell-piercing. Further, Jesus is expressing the agony of unmitigated sin. All the sins of the elect, and the hell that they deserve for eternity, are laid upon Him. And Jesus is expressing the agony of unassisted solitariness. In His hour of greatest need comes a pain unlike anything the Son has ever experienced: His Father’s abandonment. When Jesus most needs encouragement, no voice cries from heaven, “This is my beloved Son.” No angel is sent to strengthen Him; no “well done, thou good and faithful servant” resounds in His ears. The women who supported Him are silent. The disciples, cowardly and terrified, have fled. Feeling disowned by all, Jesus endures the way of suffering alone, deserted, and forsaken in utter darkness. Every detail of this horrific abandonment declares the heinous character of our sins!

    But why would God bruise His own Son (Isa. 53:10)? The Father is not capricious, malicious, or being merely didactic. The real purpose is penal; it is the just punishment for the sin of Christ’s people. “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Cor. 5:21).

    Christ was made sin for us, dear believers. Among all the mysteries of salvation, this little word “for” exceeds all. This small word illuminates our darkness and unites Jesus Christ with sinners. Christ was acting on behalf of His people as their representative and for their benefit.

    With Jesus as our substitute, God’s wrath is satisfied and God can justify those who believe in Jesus (Rom. 3:26). Christ’s penal suffering, therefore, is vicarious — He suffered on our behalf. He did not simply share our forsakenness, but He saved us from it. He endured it for us, not with us. You are immune to condemnation (Rom. 8:1) and to God’s anathema (Gal. 3:13) because Christ bore it for you in that outer darkness. Golgotha secured our immunity, not mere sympathy.

    This explains the hours of darkness and the roar of dereliction. God’s people experience just a taste of this when they are brought by the Holy Spirit before the Judge of heaven and earth, only to experience that they are not consumed for Christ’s sake. They come out of darkness, confessing, “Because Immanuel has descended into the lowest hell for us, God is with us in the darkness, under the darkness, through the darkness — and we are not consumed!”

    How stupendous is the love of God! Indeed, our hearts so overflow with love that we respond, “We love him, because he first loved us” (1 John 4:19).
     
  22. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You can believe in natalism all you like - what do you want me to tell you - do you not realize that Natalism is based on religious belief ?
    Would you like to discuss how mindlessly illogical that belief is ?

    Of course you are engaging in self deception - you think you know "defacto" what God thinks - there is nothing more self deceptive than this.
    This self deception is illustrated in your continual and desperate avoidance of information and ideas that conflict with your extremist religious beliefs - which a symptom of sophisticated mind control techniques. (Not that you are - but you portray some of the symptoms) ... definitely some kind of "thought stopping" going on.

    There is no higher court in the USA than SCOTUS - We do not base our justice system on "God's Law" as per the Bible.

    You also deceived yourself in claiming that I do not think this is a religious debate ... I am the one that brought up the religious context to the discussion. The fact that law should be secular - is also a religious debate. "Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and to me what is mine" Judge not lest you be Judged - Take log out of own eye - before picking spec out of brothers - Do unto others as you would have done to you.

    These passages have meaning for me - as they did to the founders. You on the other hand - are a lost soul .. not realizing that is true self deception.
     
  23. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Another nothing post which avoids the content of my post almost completely.
     
  24. Iron_Merc

    Iron_Merc Banned

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    There is nothing radical about wanting to save babies from a machine that dismembers them.
     
  25. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you not know what the term xenophobic means ? Why on earth would you think that only liberals use this term ? Good grief you come out with some whacked out commentary.

    Please spare me your cutting and pasting from "gotquestions" or some other apologist website devoted to irrational gibberish- and try to think for yourself.
     
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