The problem of Capitalism

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by stan1990, Mar 13, 2019.

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Do you agree that the main problem of Capitalism is of moral nature?

Poll closed Apr 12, 2019.
  1. Yes

    33.3%
  2. No

    50.0%
  3. Maybe

    16.7%
  1. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    1) Choice is not dependent upon 'many factors' unless we allow it to be, in seeking avoidance of the better (and harder) choice. Claiming 'complexity' is the last line of defence, and it's a very very flimsy one. If even one person with a horror past, zero education, and zero money can turn that around to producing sons and daughters who are doctors and lawyers .. then anyone can do it. CHOICES. As for 'competition', that's exactly my point about collectives. We circle our wagons and face the world together. It's how human clans have always done it, human nature being what it is. A familiar will always have your back willingly. A stranger - compelled by force - will begrudge it.

    2) Cooperate means voluntarily helping those not related to ourselves. That's never going to happen - and nor should it, because once it's enforced at the state level it's no longer anything like cooperation. In the meantime, we do cooperate. See above re: circled wagons.

    3) There are enough 'above poverty level jobs' for those who are willing to work for them. Any of us can climb the corporate or industrial ladder. Heck, even the public sector ladder if we're inclined that way. You're still confusing lack of money with lack of opportunity. The opportunities are there .. the business sector is always seeking new, hungry and ambitious blood. ALWAYS.

    4) Please .. 200 people in America aren't prepared to be productive and do what it takes to get ahead at work? Gimme a break. Have you any idea of how many people don't want to work AT ALL. You could offer them any job which entails a fair exchange of money for skill, and they wouldn't take them. And as for this 'jobs for all' biz .. WHO gets to determine who has to do which job? And what happens when the person says "no, I don't like that job, I don't want it'? It's an absolutely totalitarian idea, and pretty much exactly as it was in China a few decades ago. Is that what you're really shooting for?

    5) Because they're too lazy to cook from scratch, and have long since given up on fresh vegetables (too hard, too unsatisfying)! Meantime, unbelievable that you're also now resorting to 'but it's not tasty' as an excuse. You will resort to anything to cover for these lazy fools, wontcha. You need to embrace the brutal reality. CHOICES.
     
  2. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Junk food is only cheaper if you limit to already prepared food.
     
  3. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    No one is, though. Especially not in the First World. Even street dwellers in Bangladesh manage to light a few sticks and cook up some rice & beans.
     
  4. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Give me an example, please ...
     
  5. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Elvis Presley did not "choose" to exit this life prematurely, nor did Geoffrey Epstein, nor Donald Trump's elder brother. You say claiming "complexity" is the last line of defence, but these examples show complexities (environmental, psychological) are very real nevertheless.

    Likewise, assertions that individuals "choose" to be homeless or subject to poverty, are equally simplistic.

    You think it undesirable that humans should co-operate.....?

    The group of concerned scientists is saying we must...or go extinct.

    Another simplistic assertion, basically blaming the victims, while ignoring complexities noted above. The introduction of a Job Guarantee is the sensible way to deal with the issue.

    Fact is, given the remarkably high productive capacity of modern industry - with nations now fighting one another for the right to sell their produce to each other (for God's sake!) - a small minority of the population is actually required to produce the necessary wealth to achieve universal prosperity.

    Think about that...and then you will understand why there aren't enough above poverty jobs in the present private-sector wealth-creation sector.

    No....it's merely a guarantee of a job.
    And what of the 'referee' required to oversee the outcomes of private sector competition?

    [As for China, it will be fascinating to see how they maintain full employment, in the current trade war with Trump, given the acceptance of the communist party by the population relies on achieving full employment. I would advise them to ignore Trump and introduce a Job Guarantee, since they are indeed now wealthy enough to manage the continuous, sustainable, utilisation of all available resources including labour].

    But "prosperity", after the necessary goods and services have been supplied in the private sector, also includes the provision of care for the elderly, education, artistic activity, and environmental care, etc. That's the area in which the public sector Job Guarantee is required (given there is no shortage of available real resources)

    ... or because the average ready-to-eat food retailer still offers mostly junk, as advertised.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  6. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Explain yourself instead of defecating with one-liners in what is supposedly a DEBATE Forum.

    Taking pot-shots, are we, at European ex-Communist countries? Been there, done that, borrrrrrrrrrrinnnnnnnnnggggggg ...
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  7. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    JUST A WORD TO THE WISE

    Junk food will inevitably kill you if eaten regularly. It is simply a matter of time. Besides, regardless of whichever the particular reason, the average mortality in the US has diminished recently by one year of age. From here: Life Expectancy: Why It Dropped in the U.S. This Year | Fortune - excerpt:


    From here: Department of Health - Western Australia
    (Above all, stay away from Junk Food employing Kangaroo meat ... ! ; ^ )

    Also for perusal be anyone interested: 13 Effects of Fast Food on the Body - Healthline - excerpt:
    Just a word to the wise is sufficient for living longer ...
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  8. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

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    What would you like me to clarify?
     
  9. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Thanks.
     
  10. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Look, this is a Debate Forum. And debate means this:
    So, why can't we exchange (in this "public medium") with a modicum of developed and well-argued VIEWS/OPINIONS without the childish one-liner sarcasm? Which is truly infantile.

    OK, so we don't vote formally on any exchange of opinion, which is the fundamental component of the word "debate". We just "like" (if we want) someone's opinion - and that is just fine.

    But one-liner sarcasm is mostly, as should be, for children who don't know any better. Not adults. And yet, we are supposedly the latter and a sure indication of mental-immaturity is one-liner sarcasm.

    You know, the kind that Donald "D-for-Dork" throws around Twitter daily. Because, he obviously feels that is all he needs to do as PotUS of the largest democracy on earth (population-wise). That's it, occupy the White House and post on Twitter.

    Stop the world, I wanna get off ...

    PS:
    -Here' s off the net (from here) a definition of the word "sarcasm" that I've "tweaked" a bit:
    -Which is why we humans take incoming sarcasm not so slightly ...
     
  11. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'm not getting your point. If you want me to clarify something, I need a specific point of unclarity.

    A bunch of general, unrelated lecturing isn't helping me understand the issue.
     
  12. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    1) Yes, they did choose it. You cannot separate consequences from actions if the person involved is above the age of reason. We do that for TODDLERS (because they are literally incapable of making that distinction), not for 12 year olds - and certainly not for adults. Why do you want to infantalise adults? What will you gain from it? You must surely be aware that doing so is a terrible cruelty ... so you must have something very very important to gain from it, to want to cause such harm.

    2) Yes, homelessness and poverty are choices. In every case but the profoundly insane, the minor, and the frail aged without family. And here's news for ya .. those three make up the smallest proportion of homeless and poor. Even a welfare recipient can own property and make a pretty good life in America, so there is no excuse.

    3) I'M the one saying we should all be cooperating. If we were, there would be no need to demand that strangers pick up our slack.

    4) Okay, I'll humour you. Explain exactly - in detail - how this job guarantee thing will work in practice. Who creates the jobs? Who allocates them? How are they allocated? How are personal preferences catered for? How are geographical issues catered for? What happens when 10 people want the same job? What happens when no one wants the job? What happens when people say "I don't want that job, find me a better one?". Give full explanations please.
     
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  13. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    yet millions of us are subjected the same offerings, and still manage to cook healthy food from scratch.

    STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR PEOPLE!
     
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  14. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Great. So then we agree.
     
  15. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    I have chosen a lifestyle that enables me to sustain my efforts on behalf of liberty, justice and truth. You apparently demand that I don some sort of hair shirt, and sacrifice myself on the altar of your interpretation of how one achieves meaningful change. Sorry, no, because I understand why your interpretation is faulty.
    <yawn> I'm taking care of things well enough, thank you very much. The time for your notion of "action" has not arrived, so such action would be ineffective. Education is needed first, and even before education, study to determine the truth of the matter.
    More of your evil, despicable, blame-the-victim filth. People forced into poverty by the privileges of the greedy, evil, parasitic rich are not "indulging their worst whims and urges." I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you are ignorant of the research showing how growing up poor permanently alters the brain, making the victims less able to escape poverty.
     
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  16. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Are you still advocating for state ownership of all land?
     
  17. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Like Hitler 'chose' to commit suicide (probably 'rational' or the 'correct decision', at that stage of his life).

    I'm not convinced; and the wiki article on the topic of free will is complex....so we won't resolve the question here.

    as usual, you mean co-operation at the micro, ie family level.
    Survival of the species is likely to require co-operation at the species (macro) level, given the global environmental stresses beginning to appear, as a result of existing economic development paradigms.

    Local councils create the jobs, to deal with unemployment in the local community. The unemployed themselves express their personal interests and capacities, and councils match these skills to unmet needs (unmet by the private sector) as communicated to the local representative council, by the local communities themselves.

    Note: the Job Guarantee applies to the so-called "buffer employment pool" of workers, which will vary in size, according to demand in the private sector, ie these workers may not be permanently employed in the JG scheme, as they may return to the private sector, so some of your questions re numbers are immaterial, since there is always some useful work - outside of the private sector - that can be done in a community

    In some cases, JG employment may also be created on non-local national 'green' infrastructure projects, if people are happy to move.

    Funding is provided by the federal/national government:
    .....Time to study MMT. Professor Harvey's refutation of orthodox neoliberal economists like Krugman, Summers and Rogoff is a good place to start.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2019/03/05/mmt-sense-or-nonsense/#281de7b85852
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  18. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    *You mean public sector jobs? Those exist now. Why aren't your unemployed applying for them?
    *And why are people able to express a preference? Most of us don't have that luxury. What makes these people so special? And why should those of us without that luxury fund the choosy?
    *What happens when everyone says they want a nice office job with flexible hours so they can pick up the kids?
    *What happens when no one wants the jobs available in a particular area or field?
    *How can you "guarantee" a job of someone's preference?
    *How can you "guarantee" a job when no one wants that job?
    *If people were prepared to move for jobs they'd already be doing it (and plenty do). What makes yours different?
    *What happens when your guaranteed job isn't done properly, or the person comes in late every day, or takes a sick day every other week?
    *How will you make people take those 'useful work' jobs?
     
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  19. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Free will is the opposite of complex, because it involves nothing more than will. It's the freedom to override or usurp our influences and constraints. We all have that, in the democratic First World. In a corrupt or totalitarian Third World, people don't have that - which makes their situation actually complex.

    Of course that's what I mean. If PEOPLE don't change, how can anything change? Change must come from us, as individuals. And the key to that, going forward, is collectivism and footprint reduction. If we all do that, global warming will be slowed, and so will the rapidly widening wealth gap that is a consequence of isolationism and failure to take responsibility for our own.
     
  20. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    No, I am still stating the fact that no one and no organization can rightly own land, but it is government's function to administer possession and use of land because that is what government IS: the sovereign authority over a specific area of land. It is specifically to administer possession and use of land that we NEED government: the alternative is feudalism, if not barbarism or savagery. Ideally, in a responsible democracy, government fulfills that function to secure and reconcile the equal individual rights of all to life, liberty, and property in the fruits of their labor.
     
  21. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    "Administer possession" means owning, right?
     
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  22. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    You can't possibly be serious.

    You haven't seen anything like the barbarism which will result from your Grand Plan.
     
  23. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    A rose is still a rose by any other name. In this case, a very sh!tty rose.
     
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  24. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Commies try to keep changing their language. But in the end they are still stealing people's stuff at the point of a gun. They don't fool anyone.
     
  25. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    They're not even Commies. A Commie doesn't want your stuff, they want free use of their own - uninterferred with by Govt. They want to be able to live collectively in multiple occupancies, or jointly own enterprises in novel ways, etc etc. Commies have far more in common with Libertarians. No, this Govt 'administration' of all lands is pure totalitarianism. And what they think is barbarism now, will seem like the kindest society that ever existed compared to what will happen if their model is ever enforced.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019

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