A question for the pro abortion people

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by logical1, May 18, 2019.

  1. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Yet another appeal to abnormalities as if they were the normal.

    This world is far from perfect. Abnormalities do occur and require a different reaction to deal with them, but that does not change what is normal. That does not justify murdering innocent life in the womb for convenience.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  2. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    So? The legal status of a life doesn't make it morally acceptable to murder that life in the womb.
     
  3. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    EVERY pregnancy carries the risk of death.

    Here is what women face, WHAT IS "NORMAL":

    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:


    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death. """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""


    As to "convenience? YES, a woman has an abortion because it is not CONVENIENT for her to be pregnant or have a kid.

    What TF other reason would there be????


    Do you do everything in your life as INconveniently as possible????



     
  4. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    That's YOUR "morals" and YOUR morals are NOT everyone's.

    The LAW rules ….and protects us from those who want to FORCE their idea of morals on others.....and create theocracies like Muslims want to do...;)
     
  5. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    There are more miscarriages than abortions, so you can hardly refer to that as an "abnormality". In fact, having a fertilized egg NOT be carried to term is more common than having a fertilized egg reach maturity. Just the way it is.

    You probably drive a car that pollutes the air and 20,000 kids with respiratory illness die each each year from the pollution you create because driving is a convenience.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  6. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    It's the same life, all the same.

    It's the same life, all the same.

    Okay, so you're not going to dehumanize it? You're going to acknowledge that it IS a human and it IS a life?

    Yes you do.

    Nobody is attempting to take their right to their own body away from them.

    Correct. Never said she couldn't.


    Correct. I can't control her actions. However, gestating is moral and murder is immoral. Whether she wishes to act morally or immorally is up to her.

    Nope. The re-defining of immoral to moral is the problem.
     
  7. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    OK, so a teenager is a fetus according to you.(shrug)

    I have always acknowledged that a human fetus is human. It is NOT A human as in born legal person.



    NOPE, don't need to justify a legal medical procedure to you....no one does...

    Banning abortion would take away women's right to bodily autonomy.





    Only in your opinion.



    It is but a legal medical procedure isn't.

    YUPPERS! It's not up to you...you finally got it !!!!!!



    No, the problem is that you think your morals should apply to everyone......but I bet you wouldn't like it if others tried to force their morals on you....
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  8. Collateral Damage

    Collateral Damage Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure who said the above that you have quoted as though I said it, but please correct it.
     
  9. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Read post 128 and tell me if those conditions can be caused by infants, toddlers, teenagers, adults, seniors.
     
  10. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    So?? ... Simply BREATHING carries the risk of death... Death is going to happen one way or another, and it cannot be avoided.
     
  11. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Morality is not subjective.

    YOU are forcing your idea of morals onto others, right this very second!!

    I don't wish to turn the USA into a theocracy. I like it just fine as a Federated Republic.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  12. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    You are comparing an abnormality with another abnormality. The 'normal', after conception has occurred, is gestation/birth. Miscarriages are not the normal, but do naturally occur with some frequency. Abortions are not the normal either. The natural and normal process is meant to go something like this: "marriage > sex > conception > gestation > birth > child rearing > adulthood", but since this is a fallen world, this process doesn't always work in this manner.

    Nope.

    Unrelated to abortion.
     
  13. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Ok - you DO believe all abortions are medically necessary.
    Thanks for clearing that up.
     
  14. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. Study after study shows that about 2/3 of fertilized eggs fail to develop successfully. Marriage has absolutely ZERO to do with reproduction viability - that's just crazy talk.
     
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  15. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Strawman Argument Fallacy.

    A teenager is not a fetus. A fetus is not a teenager. A teenager and a fetus are, however, an identical life at different developmental stages.

    You're asserting that it is a human, but is not legally recognized as a human at that particular developmental stage. I agree with that assertion.

    When it involves murder, you do, whether or not it is legalized murder. It is murder all the same.

    No it wouldn't. She doesn't have to spread her legs. If she doesn't want a child, then she should keep her legs shut.

    Morality is not subjective.

    But a legal procedure that murders IS immoral all the same.


    Mhm.

    You ARE trying to force your morals onto me, even now... There isn't a way to avoid legislating morality.
     
  16. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Nope - I believe that all abortions are POTENTIALLY medically necessary. It's up to the woman to decide that. Not random guys on the internet who will never, ever become pregnant.
     
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  17. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Too late to correct, but yes, it wasn't you; it was Daniel Light. My mistake.
     
  18. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    The COMPLETE POST:

    EVERY pregnancy carries the risk of death.

    Here is what women face, WHAT IS "NORMAL":

    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:


    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death. """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""


    As to "convenience? YES, a woman has an abortion because it is not CONVENIENT for her to be pregnant or have a kid.

    What TF other reason would there be????


    Do you do everything in your life as INconveniently as possible????



    In this context (abortion/pregnancy) it is an important point.
     
  19. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Morals vary from person to person ….and YOUR morals are not superior to anyone else's and YOU do NOT get to dictate what "moral " is or isn't...




    HOW? What are you being FORCED to do ??? WHAT?

    .


    If you want it run on your personal opinion of "morals", you do.
     
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  20. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and one has rights and the other doesn't. Key word: "different"



    NO, I am saying it is human.

    It is not legally A human as in "person with rights".

    If you agree then why do you think it has rights?




    If it's a legal medical procedure it can't be murder since murder is illegal.

    It is only "murder" in your opinion which only involves you, no one else.





    That has nothing to do with, and does not refute what I posted:
    FoxHastings said:
    Banning abortion would take away women's right to bodily autonomy.

    Why can't you get the fact that YOU do not rule the earth on what is or isn't moral???

    It can't be legal and against the law at the same time.

    And it does NOT matter what YOU think is moral or not, YOU do NOT rule the earth on what is moral and what isn't...


    What does that mean...you're stumped?





    HOW?
    Are you saying I'm trying to force you to have an abortion???? Force you to gestate??? What TF !



    It's been done for centuries....:)
     
  21. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Same thing.

    Correct, as far as current laws go.

    Because it is a human life all the same.

    Murder is murder, regardless of legal recognition of it.

    No, it is murder by definition.

    RAAA. (Repetitious Assertion Already Addressed).

    Correct, I don't. But you don't either...

    Redefinition Fallacy. (immoral <-> illegal) Immoral does not mean "against the law".

    Correct. But remember that you don't either...

    You don't know what mhm means?

    No... I'm saying that you're forcing your morality onto me via federal laws.

    No it hasn't. Legalizing abortion, gay marriage, drugs, etc, and criminalizing "hate speech" IS legislating morality. It can't be avoided.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  22. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    No, nouns and adjectives are different things....that's why they are different words..

    FoxHastings said:
    It is not legally A human as in "person with rights".

    gfm7175:
    ""Correct, as far as current laws go.""


    FoxHastings: If you agree then why do you think it has rights?
    Click to expand...




    So is my toenail.






    :) People will be surprised that YOU rule the earth.....but they'll still ignore you :)


    Ya, but that's only your definition …:roflol:
    :) Translated:" I have no answer to":

    That has nothing to do with, and does not refute what I posted:
    FoxHastings said:
    Banning abortion would take away women's right to bodily autonomy.

    I am NOT the one trying to....YOU are!!!!!


    UH DUH Here's what you're addressing and it had nothing to do with comparing "immoral " with "against the law"
    FoxHastings said:
    It can't be legal and against the law at the same time.


    I am not trying to , YOU ARE.

    You're stumped again?


    I didn't make federal laws and they are not "morals" !!


    No, , it protected and defended rights....nothing to do with morality..
     
  23. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    And NO one is forcing you to have an abortion or marry someone of the same sex or take drugs.
     
  24. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    And thus, some are not.
    Thanks for the clarification/
     
  25. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    But you do not know which ones, because any and all pregnancy can lead to a number of complications. It's up to the mother if she wants to take that risk.
    Not random guys on the internet who will never, ever be pregnant and will not ever be faced with the fear and uncertainty that comes with pregnancy. NEVER, EVER.
     
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