NATO may die if trump is re-elected.....

So Trump getting other countries to meet their commitment to 9 up from 4 is nothing. Got it.

 

Took me less than five seconds to find this:

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/nato-spending-by-country/

 

Germany paid 1.35% of GDP this year. There are several countries, including all three Baltic states, that pay a full 2%.

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/nato-spending-by-country/

 

Sometimes, you just have to laugh at the willingness of progressive posters to so publicly expose their own demons..... The fact that this hysteria is baseless, well, that's just a symptom of the kind of jingoistic fear that the current crop of authoritarian worshipping liberals want to infect the rest of the nation with.

 

Footsie? Under what table?

Germany buys fuel from Russia, just as a dozen or two other European countries. Where do you expect them to get it? Russia helped build the pipelines that get the stuff out there. It's not like we're doing anything to change that, so until what choice do they have?

 

In a world where global trade in oil has been the norm for decades and Canada and Venezuela both have reserves dwarfing Russia’s, I don’t see your question as a serious one.

Then there’s this, I’m sure you are aware of.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/freedom-gas-us-opens-lng-floodgates-to-europe/

Of course Russia helped build a pipeline. Remember the economic activity between Russia and Germany in the 1930’s and early 40’s?

 

Your loyalty is to western Europe? If the Europeans want NATO protection, let them pay their fair share. For those that don't......they're on their own.

 

So why shouldn't they pay for the others?

 

They are expensive and ineffective.

 

?? It's we who are interested in the rule of law and a peaceful world that includes the trade - that our quality of life dependes on.

 

Russia has the same GDP as France. NATO is obsolete.

 

I don't think you can literally drown in money.

 

Did you forget what you said?

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. I like NATO, but they need to pay their fair share. I have said that as long as I can remember.

 

Thanks, it confirms many nations fall short while we exceed our responsibillity.

 

Red China putting Uighurs in camps and killing them has no effect on the USA. Besides, nothing can be done about it other than weep, cry, and moan. Nobody is going to pay the price to put a stop to it.

 

Note that U.S. complaints about the European NATO members not paying their fair share go back at least to the late 1960s, early 1970s. In that period there was legislation introduced in Congress to cut the number of U.S. troops stationed in Europe in half. From around 300,000 to 150,000.

Mansfield Amendments[edit]
Two controversial amendments by Mansfield limiting military funding of research were passed by Congress.

• The Mansfield Amendment of 1969, passed as part of the fiscal year 1970 Military Authorization Act (Public Law 91-121), prohibited military funding of research that lacked a direct or apparent relationship to specific military function. Through subsequent modification the Mansfield amendment moved the Department of Defense toward the support of more short-term applied research in universities."[17] The amendment affected the military, such as research funding by the Office of Naval Research (ONR).[18]
• The Mansfield Amendment of 1973 expressly limited appropriations for defense research through the Advanced Research Projects Agency, which is largely independent of the military, to projects with direct military application.[19]

An earlier Mansfield Amendment, offered in 1971, called for the number of US troops stationed in Europe to be halved. On May 19, 1971, however, the Senate defeated the resolution 61–36.

 

I don't agree with any of that.

It's true that we're not going to assign our military to the task of stopping acts of China that we don't like. Our military is terrific, but there are LOTS of things they can not do. And, that doesn't mean there IS nothing to do.

It's true that China's humanitarian crimes aren't going to add to your cost of living right now.

But, that doesn't justify ignoring these crimes, etither.

 

If trump stood behind the presidential podium and raised his hand and said. "If re-elected, I swear that I will not take the US out of NATO." no one would believe him. He is a serial liar with a major mental issue. He was not given the royal routine at NATO so he left early. The man is a hopeless, egomaniac with the strongest tendencies of a narcissist that I have ever seen.

If he is re-elected, he will leave DC bloody with his enemies. He will have nothing and no one to contain him. He has gotten rid of the grown ups in his cabinet, Kelly, McMasters, Tillerson, Mattis. All that is left is mindless, drooling yes men and women (few and white). He is the Mafia Boss in Chief....when he said, "we want you to do us a favor." that answered the question many people had on their mind. The man is a criminal.

 

If you don't see my post as serious, perhaps it's because you don't understand the infrastructure involved.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany#Energy_consumption

Gas is a primary need in Germany:

"Germany is also the world's largest importer of natural gas. Over 22.6% of its primary energy use comes from gas. Germany imports gas from the Netherlands and Norway. However, it also imports gas from Russia via the Nord Stream; in 2016, Germany imported 49.8 billion cubic metres (bcm) of gas from Gazprom. A terminal in Emden opened for gas from Norway in 2016."

They can't buy this from Canada, Venezuela, or the U.S. because there is no way to get it to them. Since they get most of this from the Nord Stream pipeline, which wasn't built until beginning in 2011, your quip about Germany and Russia pre-WWII is not relevant.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Streamhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream

 

I agree. But do notice the ones that are up to or over that agreed-upon (via the Obama administration btw) 2%.

If we don't hold firm with Ukraine vs Russia, snag a map and see where Putin is most likely to invade next. All three of the Baltic states are paid up. All three sent their best troops with us to Afghanistan when we invoked Article 5 of the NATO charter. All three fought and died at our side.

Putin has troops along his borders with Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. If we fail to check him in Ukraine, he'll be on them in a New York minute, and they will rightfully invoke that same Article 5. We will be honor- and duty-bound to go over there and fight with them. Either we keep Putin at bay in Ukraine, which is not a NATO member, or we end up in a full-on war with Russia.

 

The days of needing NATO has past. They need to defend themselves at their own expense, not ours.

 

The rule of law is broken in much of the USA itself, particularly on our Southern border. Free trade that we are subsidizing is hollowing out our own middle class. Too much of a good thing, (including, OK, isolationism) is not good. That we're doing so much of the heavy lifting is allowing people that in many ways are actually our competitors to coast and look good by comparison to ourselves (ie Germany has a better social welfare state, better highways, faster internet. But much of that is on our dime). NATO, right now, is that "too much" I'm writing of. We do not need it anymore. It was to safeguard Europe from a sizable threat that no longer exists. The one major threat remaining (Russia) is one they can handle themselves.

 

No, Germany's heatlhcare is not "on our dime". Our healthcare is STUPENDOUSLY expensive by comparison to ALL other first world nations around the entire world. Germany is not an outlier in any way.

The idea that the threat no longer exists is absolutely BS.

Even after Trump's impeachable offense are you seriously going to suggest that Ukraine is not under military attack by Russia?

Are you seriously unaware of the view of Eastern Europe from the perspective of Russia? Do you think they are satisfied by the current status of that region?

 

Great. The North Atlantic Terror Organisation has no raison d¨'être anyways.